Correct Order for Specific Genetics in Breeding

[davidmpenning]

With all the research I’ve been doing, I’ve seen a lot about how to breed for certain genetic traits in a breed, line, and/or strain. I’ve read about how specific genes are dominant, recessive, etc. and what that means when two different chickens get together. I’ve played around with an online genetic calculator, too.

But what I haven’t seen is anything about a correct order for specific genetics in breeding. For example - let’s say a certain chicken line needs many fixes/adjustments to SOP (leakage in feathering, comb shape, egg color, body shape, etc.). Does it matter which characteristic/gene is chosen first to work on, especially if that means bringing in outside blood (even similar breeds) to fix and adjust those issues? Or are some of those harder to adjust than others, and does they matter if they’re fixed first or last?

When using a different breed to fix something (“body type” is one I’ve heard that people use a different breed to add in), should as many other characteristics (leg color, egg color, comb shape, etc.) be as similar as possible to the original breed, to make the adjustments in as few generations as possible?

I know this is a big question (and lots of questions mixed in) and might be asking more than what someone can respond to here. So if you have any resources - books, videos, websites, articles, etc. - about this that I can learn from, I’d be so thankful if you forwarded them on to me!

Thanks so much!

 

[The Moonshiner]

No there isn't really a specific order.
Of course if bringing in a different breed you would want it as close to your breed as possible.

 

[DarJones]

There is so much variation even between different lines of the same breed that stabilizing traits takes 4 to 6 generations on average. When crossing four or more breeds, the number of traits in play rapidly gets so large that an average or amateur breeder is unlikely to stabilize anything except what pure chance turns up.

One of the most frustrating things I see often posted here on BYC is along the lines of "I'm going to cross XYZ and select out all the chicks that show ABC traits". Then the person proceeds to hatch out 32 chicks and complains that none of them are what was desired. Then they go off on a tangent by changing their desired traits to fit what actually hatched. If you are going to do serious breeding work with chickens, you will have to hatch a LOT of chicks. To make progress with my chickens at the stage they are now, I have to hatch about 1000 chicks per year to pick out 20 or 30 that have the desired traits.

Start out by setting realistic expectations, both of yourself as a breeder and of your birds as your breeding stock. The fewer traits involved in your desired selection, the faster they can be stabilized. This is a simple way of saying that crossing two breeds with a lot of similar traits will take less time to stabilize the desired combination.

Understand the breeding tools at your disposal. Backcrosses to one or more parent lines is arguably the most effective but least utilized tool here on the forum. Inbreeding is the linchpin chicken breeders rely on the most. Line breeding is a slower and more selective form of inbreeding. There are other methods, but they all in the end get back to backcrossing and inbreeding.

To address some of your questions, no, it does not matter much which traits you start out working on, however, traits tend to cluster. For example, if one or more color genes needs work, you may have to work on 20 or 30 different genes such as Pattern, melanotic, Columbian, E Locus, etc. Similarly, if comb structure is an issue, you may have to work with one or more of the 11 documented comb genes (there are more, but I've only found documentation on 11) affecting comb type.

You ask specifically about body type. It is easiest to address body type by crossing strains within an overall breed. For example, if I wanted to work on body type in my blue egg laying silver laced Wyandottes, I would make a cross to a white Wyandotte with excellent body traits. This is crossing related birds within the Wyandotte breed overall in order to move desired traits into the Silver Laced background.

 

[MysteryChicken]

With order of breeding, are you talking about crossing?

 

[davidmpenning]

There is so much variation even between different lines of the same breed that stabilizing traits takes 4 to 6 generations on average. When crossing four or more breeds, the number of traits in play rapidly gets so large that an average or amateur breeder is unlikely to stabilize anything except what pure chance turns up.

One of the most frustrating things I see often posted here on BYC is along the lines of "I'm going to cross XYZ and select out all the chicks that show ABC traits". Then the person proceeds to hatch out 32 chicks and complains that none of them are what was desired. Then they go off on a tangent by changing their desired traits to fit what actually hatched. If you are going to do serious breeding work with chickens, you will have to hatch a LOT of chicks. To make progress with my chickens at the stage they are now, I have to hatch about 1000 chicks per year to pick out 20 or 30 that have the desired traits.

Start out by setting realistic expectations, both of yourself as a breeder and of your birds as your breeding stock. The fewer traits involved in your desired selection, the faster they can be stabilized. This is a simple way of saying that crossing two breeds with a lot of similar traits will take less time to stabilize the desired combination.

Understand the breeding tools at your disposal. Backcrosses to one or more parent lines is arguably the most effective but least utilized tool here on the forum. Inbreeding is the linchpin chicken breeders rely on the most. Line breeding is a slower and more selective form of inbreeding. There are other methods, but they all in the end get back to backcrossing and inbreeding.

To address some of your questions, no, it does not matter much which traits you start out working on, however, traits tend to cluster. For example, if one or more color genes needs work, you may have to work on 20 or 30 different genes such as Pattern, melanotic, Columbian, E Locus, etc. Similarly, if comb structure is an issue, you may have to work with one or more of the 11 documented comb genes (there are more, but I've only found documentation on 11) affecting comb type.

You ask specifically about body type. It is easiest to address body type by crossing strains within an overall breed. For example, if I wanted to work on body type in my blue egg laying silver laced Wyandottes, I would make a cross to a white Wyandotte with excellent body traits. This is crossing related birds within the Wyandotte breed overall in order to move desired traits into the Silver Laced background.

There is so much variation even between different lines of the same breed that stabilizing traits takes 4 to 6 generations on average. When crossing four or more breeds, the number of traits in play rapidly gets so large that an average or amateur breeder is unlikely to stabilize anything except what pure chance turns up.

One of the most frustrating things I see often posted here on BYC is along the lines of "I'm going to cross XYZ and select out all the chicks that show ABC traits". Then the person proceeds to hatch out 32 chicks and complains that none of them are what was desired. Then they go off on a tangent by changing their desired traits to fit what actually hatched. If you are going to do serious breeding work with chickens, you will have to hatch a LOT of chicks. To make progress with my chickens at the stage they are now, I have to hatch about 1000 chicks per year to pick out 20 or 30 that have the desired traits.

Start out by setting realistic expectations, both of yourself as a breeder and of your birds as your breeding stock. The fewer traits involved in your desired selection, the faster they can be stabilized. This is a simple way of saying that crossing two breeds with a lot of similar traits will take less time to stabilize the desired combination.

Understand the breeding tools at your disposal. Backcrosses to one or more parent lines is arguably the most effective but least utilized tool here on the forum. Inbreeding is the linchpin chicken breeders rely on the most. Line breeding is a slower and more selective form of inbreeding. There are other methods, but they all in the end get back to backcrossing and inbreeding.

To address some of your questions, no, it does not matter much which traits you start out working on, however, traits tend to cluster. For example, if one or more color genes needs work, you may have to work on 20 or 30 different genes such as Pattern, melanotic, Columbian, E Locus, etc. Similarly, if comb structure is an issue, you may have to work with one or more of the 11 documented comb genes (there are more, but I've only found documentation on 11) affecting comb type.

You ask specifically about body type. It is easiest to address body type by crossing strains within an overall breed. For example, if I wanted to work on body type in my blue egg laying silver laced Wyandottes, I would make a cross to a white Wyandotte with excellent body traits. This is crossing related birds within the Wyandotte breed overall in order to move desired traits into the Silver Laced background.

This is so helpful, so thank you!! It sounds like I have more reading to do about the dominant and recessive genes, which ones cluster, and then what that means for successive generations. Any recommendations for books/resources that speak more directly to those?

I’ve taken a lot of notes about the different breeding programs, and from what I understand, depending on what my original stock is, that will determine if I start with line or back crossing. From what I’ve read, I’d I have good original stock, it makes e sense so backcross to the original pair. But if they’re not too good, then I should line breed and hope to get better offspring. And then if that doesn’t work, I should find new blood from the same breed to work with. I don’t know if that’s 100% truth, but I think that’s what I learned.

And I’ve also read that makes and females carry stronger/dominant genes as compared to each other, some )or most?) of which is because of how they each give genes into offspring. For example, I’ve read that feather coloring is more heavily influenced by the male. Do you know if those types of statements are true? I’ve never found anything in a book or resource about it, but it seems like many breeders attest to it.

Again, thank you so much!!

 

[davidmpenning]

With order of breeding, are you talking about crossing?

Yes, specifically about if it matters which characteristic/gene is targeted first. I’ve heard others talk about how hard (let’s just say, for an example) feather colors and patterns are, but combs are easier. So some would say to target the comb first, so that way all the hard work from perfecting the feather color/pattern wouldn’t have to start over after fixing the comb. Hopefully that makes sense!

 

[MysteryChicken]

Yes, specifically about if it matters which characteristic/gene is targeted first. I’ve heard others talk about how hard (let’s just say, for an example) feather colors and patterns are, but combs are easier. So some would say to target the comb first, so that way all the hard work from perfecting the feather color/pattern wouldn’t have to start over after fixing the comb. Hopefully that makes sense!

Okay.

I find it doesn't matter what order you cross, but only target the traits you desire to keep.

 

[NatJ]

And I’ve also read that makes and females carry stronger/dominant genes as compared to each other, some )or most?) of which is because of how they each give genes into offspring. For example, I’ve read that feather coloring is more heavily influenced by the male. Do you know if those types of statements are true? I’ve never found anything in a book or resource about it, but it seems like many breeders attest to it.

I believe that is mostly false, but I can think of a few sort-of exceptions:

--sex linked traits are on the Z sex chromosome. A rooster passes that to both his sons and his daughters. A hen passes her Z chromosome to her sons, but W to her daughters. So for any trait on the Z chromosome, a hen can NOT pass it to her daughters. She gets it from her father, and gives it to her sons. A rooster may get it from his father or his mother, and pass it to his sons or his daughters. Several important genes are on the Z chromosome (silver/gold, barring, chocolate, light vs. dark skin, fast/slow feathering.)

--homozygous vs. heterozygous. If a given chicken is homozygous (pure) for a certain trait, they will pass it to all of their offspring. If they are heterozygous (split or impure), they will pass that trait to only about half of their offspring. If someone happens to have homozygous birds of one sex, and heterozygous ones of the other sex, I can see how a rumor like this might get started.

--dominant vs. recessive traits. If someone crosses a chicken with a dominant trait, and one with a recessive trait, of course they are going to see the dominant trait in the chicks. But they might think that is "the mother's trait" or "the father's trait," instead of understanding dominant & recessive.

--a rooster can generally sire many more chicks than the number of eggs a hen can lay. So if you need one chicken to pass a certain trait to a large number of offspring, you probably want that one chicken to be male.

I’ve heard others talk about how hard (let’s just say, for an example) feather colors and patterns are, but combs are easier. So some would say to target the comb first, so that way all the hard work from perfecting the feather color/pattern wouldn’t have to start over after fixing the comb.

If there is a particular trait that is very important, I might do it first. Examples might be a certain comb type to avoid frostbite in cold weather, or high egg production so there are more eggs to hatch.

After that, I would probably start with the things that are genetically simplest. It's fairly easy to breed out rose comb or a crest on the head (one gene each), but much harder to breed for the correct shape of rose comb or a correctly shaped crest.

Some things have to work in certain orders. For example, if you want a laced chicken, you might have to breed out the gene for solid black before you can see the lacing to work on the quality of it.

 

[Feathercrazie]

This is so helpful, so thank you!! It sounds like I have more reading to do about the dominant and recessive genes, which ones cluster, and then what that means for successive generations. Any recommendations for books/resources that speak more directly to those?

I’ve taken a lot of notes about the different breeding programs, and from what I understand, depending on what my original stock is, that will determine if I start with line or back crossing. From what I’ve read, I’d I have good original stock, it makes e sense so backcross to the original pair. But if they’re not too good, then I should line breed and hope to get better offspring. And then if that doesn’t work, I should find new blood from the same breed to work with. I don’t know if that’s 100% truth, but I think that’s what I learned.

And I’ve also read that makes and females carry stronger/dominant genes as compared to each other, some )or most?) of which is because of how they each give genes into offspring. For example, I’ve read that feather coloring is more heavily influenced by the male. Do you know if those types of statements are true? I’ve never found anything in a book or resource about it, but it seems like many breeders attest to it.

Again, thank you so much!!

I have never heard of there being any genes being stronger from the male or female. There are genes that are contained on the male chromosome, ie silver, barred, etc., but both male and female contribute equally to the offspring. True, the male has two male chromosomes, while the female has one male and one female. this enables the sex linked breeds to work. This is also why, in the barred breeds, the male is much lighter than the female; he has two silver genes where she only has one.

 

[The Moonshiner]

This is also why, in the barred breeds, the male is much lighter than the female; he has two silver genes where she only has one.

They're lighter because they have two barring genes.