Goat experts and opinionated people needed: ivermectin vs herbals

[Chirpy]

This thread has actually been fascinating and I'd love some more "opinionated" people to jump in. Worming goats and other health management issues are certainly a personal area. Since I'm learning all this I love to hear ALL sides with as much detail as possible.... I still have decisions to make myself in these regards and want to have as much personal and experienced info as possible as I start to make my own choices of what to do and not do.

Thanks guys!

 

[1acrefarm]

I will definitely be getting a fecal count done soon. I now have doubts that the stuff I used is any good. If Kate does not trust it to do the job I don't either.

 

[skirbo]

A massively useful thread, thanks.

Sarah

 

[helmstead]

I tried to go 'organic' when we got started... I really, really did. I bought the good herbal dewormers, used non medicated whole feeds, etc. I was a vegan hippie in HS, I am into hollistics, homeopathics...I wanted to have clean milk and naturally healthy goats.

1 year in, I had a bunch of unthrifty goats. I had fecals done and am surprised I didn't see the worms before they were smeared on the lenses.

And the cocci count...OMGosh.

So, please...if you do choose to go herbal, all natural...whatever...spot check your herd from time to time to make sure it's working. Then don't be aghast when you find out you need a Power Pack. Also remember...there isn't a test for every worm. Lungworms, liver flukes...all silent killers. Maybe break creed every now and then (like, say, twice a year) and treat for those.

 

[freemotion]

I am glad so many people are finding this useful!

I DID ask for opinionated people....and I got them! I appreciate the passion and the experience. I will probably go with a combination approach, and use the fecals to see how it is going.

I realize that I thoughtlessly brought this goat in without considering quarantining her, so now a completely herbal approach is likely not enough. Probably would be in healthy conditions....but I also no longer have the horse grazing the pasture down to the ground. I mow it by hand with a scythe, so it is not kept short enough to manage worm load.

The rumor is that there were sheep on my property some 30 years ago, so I wonder if that could also be a factor in worm egg load on the pasture. And it had gone to forest, unfenced, and there are deer in the area, dropping their wormy little poops, too.

I really like the ongoing explanations of the thought process behind each one's decisions.

Watch for my next goat thread....can't wait to see what happens!

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
From what I understand, Freemotion, the shorter the grass the higher the worm load and the recommended pasture length to avoid re-ingestion of larvae is 4-6 in(the larvae like the moist grass~closer to the base/ground). This varies in hot, dry weather, of course.

Also, the larvae have a cycle in which they live (not sure of the exact time frame) but the old timers said never let the church bell ring on the same pasture 3 times!

I guess that would mean 3 wks. I would venture to say that pasture that had sheep on it 30 years previously has already been sanitized by freezing temps and hot sun by now.

 

[patandchickens]

Skimming this thread I have not noticed (tho maybe I missed it) anyone suggesting getting a fecal done to get some clue what if any worm load the goat HAS. This should NOT require a vet visit, assuming you have a client relationship with some vet somewhere for some other animals e.g. cats dogs whatever... just call to make sure they'll do it, then bring 'em a baggie of fresh poo. I believe last time I had one done (on a cat, but species is irrelevant) it was something like $20-30.

Worms do not shed their eggs completely uniformly thru time, and tapeworms in particular can be hard to reliably pick up on a *single* fecal float, but still, it is a good cheap way to get a useful idea of what kind of party's goin on inside the animal.

The results may influence what you choose to do. I do not know whether different wormers are used in goats for different worms as they are in horses, but there might be that consideration. Also, personally I would be VERY VERY reluctant to skip commercial wormers entirely on an animal that has a whole lotta worm eggs in the sample, but I might well be inclined to try some sort of fairly nontoxic and safe herbal remedy *first* as long as the animal seems in good health otherwise, then follow it up a week later with ivermectin or whatever. (Unless keeping your pastures clean for any other or future goats is a big priority in which case with horses the strategy is to give ivermectin as soon as the horse is brought home, while still stalled, and wait 12-24 hrs before turning out). If OTOH the goat appears to have only a light worm load, I think a better argument can be made for similar-but-different merits of chemical vs herbal/natural wormers, and you pays your money you takes your choice.

To me it boils down to this. The effects of ivermectin and other chemical wormers are fairly well documented -- their numerical effectiveness against each stage of each type of worm, the necessary doseage to achieve that, the maximum safe doseage, their effects on the animals, and (to a lesser but nonzero extent) their effects on the pasture ecosystem once they exit via poo.

That information is basically 100% UNavailable for any herbal/natural wormer. Sure, people say 'I do such-and-such and it works for me b/c my animals are healthy and seem worm-free' but while this is an interesting particle of information it does not give you any much idea of the larger picture. NUMBERS and CONTROLLED TRIALS in particular are lacking. This is a sad, inexcusable state of affairs -- people OUGHT to be doing the same sorts of studies on herbal/natural wormers to see what if anything they do, good/bad/indifferent -- but it is the way things *are*, right now.

If you like to operate on belief and an inner knowledge that you instinctually know what is the right thing to do in life, then that is probably irrelevant to you.

If OTOH you believe that God gave us eyes for the purpose of looking and brains for the purpose of thinking, and if an animal seems to be laboring under a significant worm burden would prefer to use something with DOCUMENTED effectiveness (and in a large-population controlled-trial numerical sense, not just opinion/impression/anecdote sense), then using chemical wormers as directed on labels is pretty safe.

Those concerned with puttin' synthetic chemicals into meat, compost, soil, etc could consider that using it once does not commit you to mega-doses every month or two for the rest of your life. THere are MOST CERTAINLY in-between strategies

(Testing regularly and treating only when significant worm populations seem present is one good one; other reasonable possibilities exist too, including use of herbal/natural things in an attempt to *prevent*, not so much *cure*, worms)

JMHO,

Pat

 

[helmstead]

Dang, Pat...so well put. I am too emotional to say it in such a way.

 

[freemotion]

Thanks, Pat, I appreciate your HO! Yup, that all was discussed in depth and with much passion

..... I will be doing a combination of chemical and herbal. I like the idea of herbal first, I think that might be easier on her system if the worm burden is reduce a little before the big whammy of chemical wormers.

And thanks!!! I didn't know about the grass length thing....I always though the opposite, but really, I haven't read anything on that in a few years now. I am in control of a pasture for the first time in my life. For years, I boarded my horse. Now we have our own little farmlet, and I am learning new things and having a ball!

 

[ksacres]

Herbal wormers are not regulated or tested like commercial "chemical" wormers. They do not have to be proven safe or even effective...

And for those of you that are against "chemical wormers" what do you think those plant extracts are??? They are CHEMICALS too. Only they are chemicals that can vary in density (potency) as they are not regulated. Did I mention they aren't regulated? Did I also mention that the strength can vary so therefore the "dosage" can vary?

Just because they are "natural" doesn't mean they are safe.

Ivermectin is proven effective and SAFE in the recommended dosage. I have heard horror stories about herbal wormers, I'll stick with Ivermectin thanks.

Of course, in a perfect world, one wouldn't need to deworm at all. I didn't deworm at all for the first 10 years I raised goats. They didn't need it, I had a HUGE pasture (60+ acres) and only six or so goats. Then I moved to Wyoming and we have about 20 goats on a dry lot-they have to be wormed now. Feeding habits and space make a big difference.


*hands soap box back to Helmstead*