HELP! Need counter-arguments for non-believers.

[Brahma Chicken5000]

@khorvath you mentioned that you plan to move in the next year. Will you be able to get your coop back from the friend who took in your flock?

 

[ChickenAgain]

I am in the midst of working to legalize backyard hens in my town (a suburb of Chicago). I've got a small group of volunteers, an ongoing petition with 350 signatures from residents, and a few supportive aldermen. We failed in city council 2 years ago but are back with some new aldermen and I am hoping this year will work. However, I am going up against some really crotchety folks who won't listen to reason.

Last night I was invited to speak at a ward meeting. Right away I knew I was in trouble when a few old men behind me started laughing and making chicken sounds when they saw me. Classy! I came prepared with tons of statistics, letters from avian vets as well as all the nearby towns that allow hens. I had a good case. But as I spoke there were a few people (they are always the loudest and meanest) that were not having it. Remembering that last time salmonella was the big sticking point I gathered so many statistics to make their head spin. However, that didn't seem to be the issue with this group.

Noise. Smell. Lowering property values. Those were their big arguments and no matter what statistics I gave them they didn't agree. Some of their fine points...

• It is okay for loud dogs to bark all day because they are dogs. That's what they do. And chickens are louder. Period. Nope... chickens are louder than dogs.
• Residents won't be able to sell their house if there are chickens next door. No one will want to live near that.
• My neighbor has a farm nearby and brought chicken poop to fertilize her garden and it smelled horrible forever. Worse than all other fertilizer because that smell goes away. Not chicken poop smell. Nope. Never goes away.
• No one will want to move to our town anymore. We will be a laughing stock. People will call us 'Chicken town'.
• If the ordinance says they have to be 10 feet from the property line they aren't going to put it by their house, they will put it under my bedroom window and I will have to hear chickens all day and it will smell and I won't be able to live there.
• It is okay that dogs are loud because they can go inside. Chickens will be loud outside all day long.
• My property values!!!!!!
• Chickens are farm animals for a reason. We aren't farmers. They should only be on farms.

So these are just a few of the things I heard last night. The worst part is that they were so angry about it. Just really seething. I am totally happy having rational discussions with people that have differing opinions but it is hard to talk to people that come at you yelling with such hostility before you've even opened your mouth. I just smiled, nodded, told them I heard them and countered as much as I could. But I would really LOVE any rational points I can bring up to counter these ridiculous arguments since they didn't want to hear facts (chicken decibels vs. barking dogs decibels) (amount of dog waste vs. chicken waste). Help me please find ways to reach these people and appeal to their senses (if they have any)

Crows are louder than chickens. Keep chickens no matter what. Their restrictions are not constitutional.

 

[Cyprus]

Crows are louder than chickens. Keep chickens no matter what. Their restrictions are not constitutional.

Fines aren't fun, my friend.

 

[ChickenAgain]

You'll have to take those fines to court.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

This whole thread is baffling to me.

A quarter acre is over 10,000 sqft. I live on a quarter acre. If you're assuming the pen size is 10sqft/bird you could fit 1000 birds in that space. Which is wack and unreasonable of course. You also have the house, the front lawn, the driveway, garage, etc. But ultimately, on my 1/4 acre property I have the spit end of my back yard as a chicken pen. It's just the last 20' of a lawn over 125' long. It's still 20x40, which is 800 sqft. I have 8 chickens in it and a 4x8' coop. How on earth does anyone think that chickens won't fit in that sort of space??? It doesn't make any sense....
The smell is a non issue because of the substrate. I use deep litter from woodchips. It doesn't smell like anything. I would lay down in my chicken pen on a tarp and spend all day there and not smell anything except for right after a chicken poops.
Losing money on chickens should be a non starter. Nobody expects to make money when they buy a dog, so why was that ever even brought up? Also nobody expects dogs, or turtles or fish or any other pet to be sanitary. I mean, heck, I just got a puppy and he came with tapeworms. It's an individual responsibility thing there - some people let their dogs lick them on the mouths some don't.
The extra roosters produced from owning hens, well, that's a moral argument, not a legal one.
The constitution says nothing about keeping chickens???? What???
And why would you even come into a thread like this just to tell someone "no don't do that you're wrong for what you want". Like, be helpful. Yeesh.
This whole thread just seems non helpful and wack to me. It's largely not really accomplishing the OPs goals I think.

Anyhow, OP, I would start by trying to argue based on the councils negligence.

There are, of course, countless places that allow chickens. Cleveland and its surrounding suburbs have all been chicken friendly for YEARS now. Nobody calls Cleveland 'chicken town', that's dumb. My own location I own a rooster (grandfathered in) and my immediate neighbor's house sold last year. And before that it was a rental that was successfully rented, even though a rooster lived next door. My neighbor across the street recently tried to give me even MORE chickens actually. They wanted to rehome a friends chickens with me this past week (they found a home somewhere closer to their original location).
A large number of major cities and city suburbs allow chicken ownership and haven't seen property values decline substantially. But of course you know that. The only way to win the debate here is to change the code of conduct to make the bullies sit down and shut up.

Start with recordings of council meetings. Do they allow hecklers for other issues? Is the council really acting in the city's best interest if they are ignoring sound research data? I would start over with the intention to establish boundaries for debate. Can you ask the council to remove hecklers? Can you ask the COPS to remove hecklers?

If you can establish boundaries for debate that require sources, you can easily bring this to a close. You obviously have sources and they don't. It's pretty quick to shut down most fact-based arguments with "Ok, here's my sources. These come from experts in the field. Where are yours?" when they don't have any.
But it sounds like right now you're not dealing with good debate etiquette - it sounds like you're dealing with a good ol boys club of bullies. Expose it. Record it. If they're being this awful during your issues, are they being this awful about city contracts? About deciding how to handle health and sanitation systems? About other ordinance changes? If so they're negligent to their whole city. If not, they're (possibly illegally) targeting you as an individual. I would break it open and try to get them voted out and push for evidence-based legislature.
Additionally MANY cities that have tried to fight ordinance changes allowing hens have found themselves in costly long-term legal battles with residents. It becomes a very public issue. They get the media involved. Letter writing campaigns start. It could be very costly for the city to try to enforce this, especially if neighbors who have chickens already are asked to get rid of them. That's not very fiscally responsible either.

Keep getting your signatures, get small communities involved like schools and churches, contact the media, raise heck. Ask hard questions VERY publicly like 'Is *city council member name* ignoring evidence-based arguments regularly? Or it just when interacting with specific people they don't like?'. Make OTHER people think about that too. That's the only way you're going to get the job done in your current environment. Make the council members wonder if they're keeping their jobs next year. Maybe even find and endorse people who could replace them in your community who are suited for the job.

Good luck OP. I hope you find more support.

 

[Cyprus]

And why would you even come into a thread like this just to tell someone "no don't do that you're wrong for what you want". Like, be helpful. Yeesh.

I don't know if you were talking about me, although I'd have to say it definitely sounded like it.
If you weren't, ignore this.
I did not write those words, thank you. I was playing devil's advocate.

 

[Rammy]

I am in the midst of working to legalize backyard hens in my town (a suburb of Chicago). I've got a small group of volunteers, an ongoing petition with 350 signatures from residents, and a few supportive aldermen. We failed in city council 2 years ago but are back with some new aldermen and I am hoping this year will work. However, I am going up against some really crotchety folks who won't listen to reason.

Last night I was invited to speak at a ward meeting. Right away I knew I was in trouble when a few old men behind me started laughing and making chicken sounds when they saw me. Classy! I came prepared with tons of statistics, letters from avian vets as well as all the nearby towns that allow hens. I had a good case. But as I spoke there were a few people (they are always the loudest and meanest) that were not having it. Remembering that last time salmonella was the big sticking point I gathered so many statistics to make their head spin. However, that didn't seem to be the issue with this group.

Noise. Smell. Lowering property values. Those were their big arguments and no matter what statistics I gave them they didn't agree. Some of their fine points...

• It is okay for loud dogs to bark all day because they are dogs. That's what they do. And chickens are louder. Period. Nope... chickens are louder than dogs.
• Residents won't be able to sell their house if there are chickens next door. No one will want to live near that.
• My neighbor has a farm nearby and brought chicken poop to fertilize her garden and it smelled horrible forever. Worse than all other fertilizer because that smell goes away. Not chicken poop smell. Nope. Never goes away.
• No one will want to move to our town anymore. We will be a laughing stock. People will call us 'Chicken town'.
• If the ordinance says they have to be 10 feet from the property line they aren't going to put it by their house, they will put it under my bedroom window and I will have to hear chickens all day and it will smell and I won't be able to live there.
• It is okay that dogs are loud because they can go inside. Chickens will be loud outside all day long.
• My property values!!!!!!
• Chickens are farm animals for a reason. We aren't farmers. They should only be on farms.

So these are just a few of the things I heard last night. The worst part is that they were so angry about it. Just really seething. I am totally happy having rational discussions with people that have differing opinions but it is hard to talk to people that come at you yelling with such hostility before you've even opened your mouth. I just smiled, nodded, told them I heard them and countered as much as I could. But I would really LOVE any rational points I can bring up to counter these ridiculous arguments since they didn't want to hear facts (chicken decibels vs. barking dogs decibels) (amount of dog waste vs. chicken waste). Help me please find ways to reach these people and appeal to their senses (if they have any)

You cant fix stupid.

 

[sorce]

What Town?

Post 45 all day!

Sorce

 

[MIchickenlady]

A couple years ago I moved my coop- no chickens- from the country to a 1/4 acre lot within village limits, population 420 surrounded by agriculture. The village did not allow chickens when we moved here, but we attended meetings regularly, were friendly with the folks at meetings and got to know them, talked to the neighbors, then we proposed the village consider adopting the same ordinance to allow a limited amount of hens no roosters 10 ft from property lines as neighboring villages/towns have. They voted to change it. We keep 6 hens as a hobby, as pets, at the back of our property in a 4x8 bi-level coop with covered fenced and netted 10x30 run and we are diligent about cleaning.
Maybe have some folks from nearby towns that allow chickens come speak at a council meeting in a positive friendly way about their experience of having a few hens?
I hope you prevail!!