Interesting article regarding commercially raised meat chickens in US

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

Quote:
Ok, lets play the game with your rules. I will concede a 25% reduction in production to account for the loss of our export market and for reduced domestic consuption. That puts us at 6 billion broilers and 86 million market hogs.

Now show the math on the number of acres, producers, and the other outcomes from using 'sustainable' methods to meet the animal protein demand of the US.

Jim

 

[fancbrd4me02]

Quote:
Stop raising and processing them in Concentrated Industrial Fecal Factories.

Please tell us how we are going to raise 8.7 billion of them per year in backyards in 25 bird chicken tractors and only during the summer. Or on the apartment balconys overlooking Central Park from Manhattan.

For $0.79 per pound, ready-to-cook.

Everybody seems to think that it is unfortunate that our food production does not meet the high standards of Russia. Got news for you - I have been there (in poultry rearing and processing facilities) and have spent 6 weeks total eating in resturaunts. - - - Well it was better than when I was in Haiti last, three years ago. They raise all their chickens naturally there.

Why does it have to be $.79 per pound? Just because everyone is used to artificially low prices for meat? Well, if prices were to go up, people would probably keep buying meat. They might complain and cut back a bit at first, but after a while they would get used to the new higher prices and get back to eating meat like they did before. You know how I know? Just look at what happens with gas prices. And we are talking about small price increases compared to the hikes in gas prices. The meat producers are just unwilling to risk a possible reduction of thier profits even for a sort term. Also, if chlorine is the only way to keep people from getting sick, how are the european companies who don't use chlorine keeping everyone in Europe from dying of bacterial contamination?

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Also, if chlorine is the only way to keep people from getting sick, how are the european companies who don't use chlorine keeping everyone in Europe from dying of bacterial contamination?

There are other alternatives for disinfecting water...

Ozonation is a method of disinfection whereby ozone gas is added to water and an electric current applied. It can create other potentially cancer-causing by-products, such as bromate, though these by-products can be removed with additional treatment. Ozonation is a good primary disinfectant, but not a good secondary disinfectant. Because this type of disinfection doesn’t last throughout the water delivery system to homes and businesses, another disinfectant (such as chlorine) must be used for secondary disinfection.

Ultraviolet (UV) light treatment is effective against most microbes, and is even more effective than chlorine against certain microbes such as Cryptosporidium. However, UV disinfection is less effective with murky water, must be carefully monitored to ensure it is working properly and can be costly to set up. Again, UV light treatment is a good primary disinfectant, but the effects don’t last while delivering water to homes and businesses.

Chlorine dioxide is another chemical disinfectant that is effective against most microbes, but also creates disinfection by-products that may be harmful to human health, and can be more difficult to use than chlorine. It can be an effective primary disinfectant, but is not as good at maintaining disinfection during delivery of water to homes and businesses.

Chloroamines are a group of chemicals that create much lower levels of harmful by-products than traditional chlorine. However, they can be expensive and difficult to use. Though they are effective against bacteria, they are not effective against certain other harmful microbes and therefore they are not good primary disinfectants. A different disinfectant has to be used at the water treatment plant. They are more stable throughout the water delivery system, and so may be a useful alternative to chlorine for secondary disinfection.​

 

[Buster52]

Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay :

Quote:
Ok, lets play the game with your rules. I will concede a 25% reduction in production to account for the loss of our export market and for reduced domestic consuption. That puts us at 6 billion broilers and 86 million market hogs.

Now show the math on the number of acres, producers, and the other outcomes from using 'sustainable' methods to meet the animal protein demand of the US.

Jim

I still reject your assumption that we even need to produce those kinds of numbers. Just because we do doesn't mean it is necessary. Perhaps the reason farmers can't make a decent wage is because we produce too much. But even given your numbers...

Show me how you do it without petroleum.

In fact, show me how you do any factory farming at all without petroleum. The entire system is built on a finite resource. Finite as in we will eventually run out. If we haven't done so already, we will soon hit Peak Oil.

They call it "peak" because we have peaked. As in, it is all downhill from here. We will be working with an increasingly diminishing supply while the demand of countries like India and China will continue to increase, making it an increasingly premium commodity that will only increase in expense.

Come back and talk about cheap chicken then.

Sustainable agriculture, on the other hand, is built on solar energy, managed intensive grazing, nature, and good old fashion farmer know-how. It requires little to no petroleum. The sun, the farmer, and the animals, all working to produce all the food we need.​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay :

Quote:
Ok, lets play the game with your rules. I will concede a 25% reduction in production to account for the loss of our export market and for reduced domestic consuption. That puts us at 6 billion broilers and 86 million market hogs.

Now show the math on the number of acres, producers, and the other outcomes from using 'sustainable' methods to meet the animal protein demand of the US.

Jim

Well the issue is not the demand but the customers eating habbits. 5.5 million broilers are consumed weekly for McDonalds... that is a staggering number! 285 Million broilers a year by one company. This doesn't include the countless of Fried Chicken Shops around the word, which I'm sure KFC alone does more than any of them.

You can't be sustainable when supporting a company like this. However you can support a lot of people using Busters sustainable methods. I do disagree with his assumption ......

But as I've said elsewhere, in the end it doesn't matter. We can live sustainably voluntarily now, or have sustainability forced upon us later

People want crappy food... and they want cheap food. Money always talks in the end.... there is no debating that.

However "sustainable" agriculture has claimed its' stake in todays industry and will compete for many of the consumers that are switching over from big ag to medium sized farms.... there is no debating that either. It's a matter of time before a very significant number of consumers no longer buy from unsustainable agricultural farms.... how many???? Time will tell....​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Quote:
Ok, lets play the game with your rules. I will concede a 25% reduction in production to account for the loss of our export market and for reduced domestic consuption. That puts us at 6 billion broilers and 86 million market hogs.

Now show the math on the number of acres, producers, and the other outcomes from using 'sustainable' methods to meet the animal protein demand of the US.

Jim

I still reject your assumption that we even need to produce those kinds of numbers. Just because we do doesn't mean it is necessary. Perhaps the reason farmers can't make a decent wage is because we produce too much. But even given your numbers...

Show me how you do it without petroleum.

In fact, show me how you do any factory farming at all without petroleum. The entire system is built on a finite resource. Finite as in we will eventually run out. If we haven't done so already, we will soon hit Peak Oil.

They call it "peak" because we have peaked. As in, it is all downhill from here. We will be working with an increasingly diminishing supply while the demand of countries like India and China will continue to increase, making it an increasingly premium commodity that will only increase in expense.

Come back and talk about cheap chicken then.

Sustainable agriculture, on the other hand, is built on solar energy, managed intensive grazing, nature, and good old fashion farmer know-how. It requires little to no petroleum. The sun, the farmer, and the animals, all working to produce all the food we need.

You don't think that the governments are figuring this out already? I'm sure there are many fuel opportunities in the mix as we speak. Just because petroleum falls... doesn't mean the food industry will with it. I see your point but they will prevail... factory farms are here to stay.

 

[Buster52]

Quote:
People want crappy food... and they want cheap food.

I kind of explained what I meant in my last post. It won't be cheap forever. It will only be cheap as long as oil is cheap.

But again, it isn't cheap even now. The environmental and health costs alone make it far more expensive than the actual price tag would indicate, never mind the cost in tax dollars to prop it up through subsidies.

 

[Buster52]

Quote:
As a matter of fact, no, I don't.

But even if they do, how do they fertilize their cheap corn on which the entire system is built? That requires petroleum, as do the chemical pesticides needed to keep monocultures from completely collapsing.

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

Quote:
This is typical of the Food-Elitist, they offer no real data or solution, just a myopic view of how they think the world should be. Rather than providing a plan they blame the consumer and use the solution of "stop eating crappy food", or "Salatin does it", or "Read Omnivore's Dilemma".

I wonder what type of trators you will use to provide chicken meat for the 9.8 Million people living in URBAN Los Angeles or the 19.5 million citizens of New York.

 

[CARS]

Buster, I wish we could all live in your dream world. I try to be as self-sufficient as I can, but I really can't even begin to think about how we are going to get where you want to get. Short of a complete and total meltdown of society. Which, if that happens, your dead. Someone is going to take what you have. Talk about an inconvenient truth