Lavender-Based Leghorn Breeding & Improvement Discussion

[Tbird84]

This link from the thread by Miami Leghorn has genetics (tons of genetics) on feather genes -- about 1/3 of the way scrolled down talks about hard/soft feathering.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations2.html#gen_mut_feathtype

What you mention too, I wonder what the feathering for heterozygous (one hard feather gene, one soft feather gene) would produce. And -- it kind of seems like it could be possible to have both soft and hard feathered Leghorns -- so all the people who spoke up are right. That feather link is way too complex for what I'm working on now -- It also makes me wonder a bit about slow-feathering and fast feathering. Add to that, someone said there is loose feathering and tight feathering -- so you get geometrical options the more choices you put in the mix.

That's another reason to focus on just one or two traits to 'work on'.

Loose feather vs tight feather is probably a better description of what we've seen, tbh. I'm sure the Isabel got it from the orpington side.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

The more I read, the more I believe that crossing back to black should NOT be *necessary* to improve color and would do little more than mask the lavender-linked feather quality issues from what I can tell. I believe improving the tone and pattern of these birds would best be accomplished by selecting towards the birds that actually exhibit the colors we want...choose darker-toned birds with better contrast and brighter salmon/gold, etc. Crossing out to excellent quality browns stands to improve issues with things like type, egg color, fluffiness, size, etc but I also would not RELY on it *instead* of working to eliminate the feather quality issues within the existing lavender gene pool.

I truly do believe that lavender color and tone should be able to be improved by working within the existing lavender gene pool. Look at, say, Porcelain D'Uccles. Nobody breeds out to Mille Fleur D'Uccles to improve the lavender tones that I know of, but one article I read said that when the lavender mutation first appeared in D'Uccles almost all of the males exhibited the wing patch problem but that is now far less prevalent and it is possible to select breeding stock from within the variety that does not show the problem.

This "wing patch" with the permanent pin feathers also appears to be strictly linked to the diluted gold genes—I can find no reference to it in solid color lavender birds or birds that don't carry gold. For me, this makes the idea of breeding to silvers for a silver DW-based strain even more attractive.

Fortunately, I'm really not seeing any indication of actual fray (the dreaded "shredder" gene) in any of the pictures of Isabel Leghorns I've seen. Maybe we dodged that bullet.

 

[ChicKat]

Super good that you aren't seeing any shredder gene indications.

Off Topic -- but have you seen this video everyone/anybody.
Nice photography, cute chicks and sheesh-- he keeps opening to take out chicks and all 8 hatch. wow.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Man, miss a week and this thread takes off.
I'm several pages behind so I need to get caught up.

 

[Miami Leghorn]

take a look at this:
Here's the Leghorn "Type"
View attachment 1970119
Although I'm the only one here who would have this bird as an ideal out-cross for my program (color-wise) -- Look at the perfest proportions for a Leghorn. Long back and of the entire bird -- 50% is his tail right? Nice rounded breast and low angle to the tail.
Found this on the internet while looking for something else.
So artist can make the perfect picture -- and this next one is a photograph of a real chicken

So similar IMO to the artist rendition.
Also encountered something about lavender and the feather shreder:
"I have seen some ‘otherwise-beautiful’ birds that have had the unfortunate ‘tail shredder’ problem. The good news is that the link can be broken and it is possible to produce lavenders with normal-feathered tails."
article by Grant Brereton is here:
https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/the-lavender-gene/
also he says in the article:
In Holland and Germany they have a color called ‘Isabel,’ which is created when the lavender gene is added to Partridge (or a similar variety such wild type or double-lacing).

The nomenclature does vary and not all agree what ‘Isabel’ should look like. And, on some parts of the Continent, what we know as Millefleur in the UK is actually referred to as ‘Porcelain.’"
I think that article was referenced in Miami Leghorns thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/duckwing-leghorns.1291747/page-9#post-21979168
really an interesting quest going on in that thread.
...................
ETA some more type shots/images to help us improve the look of our birds


https://www.leghorn-italiener.com/standard

Wow, ChicKat you are a machine! And I mean that with the utmost respect! Love the Lavenders here in the States and looking at the Creles overseas, I see myself following The Moonshiner's situation and breaking off and delving into other colors as well...But for now just the Goldens...just the Goldens... I keep telling myself...

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Wow, ChicKat you are a machine! And I mean that with the utmost respect! Love the Lavenders here in the States and looking at the Creles overseas, I see myself following The Moonshiner's situation and breaking off and delving into other colors as well...But for now just the Goldens...just the Goldens... I keep telling myself...

You know... you'll get golden cockerels if you breed lavender to silver.

What's the attraction to golden anyway? It's always struck me as just a less saturated light brown (which is what it is, I guess.) You just like softer colors? Isabel is as ultra-soft as it gets.

In all seriousness, I was watching my little group work through their scratch today with their soft pastel shades and big bright red combs and I can't imagine a prettier bird. They're gorgeous. They're balanced and sprightly and active and they look like well-rounded athletes instead of muscle-bound weight lifters or marathon runners, and they're definitely not a big ol' fluffy couch potato Orpington like I am I'm feeling really torn about my dedication to a Houdan revival because I'm a big believer in dedicating yourself to one breed or variety... but these are **good** chickens. I'd take one of these over an Orpington or Brahma or Wyandotte or whatever the fluffy dual-purpose flavor of the week is any day.

 

[The Moonshiner]

They're not trying to get goldens like the silver/gold cockerels.
The goal is the goldens like oversees that show in both sexes and breed true.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

They're not trying to get goldens like the silver/gold cockerels.
The goal is the goldens like oversees that show in both sexes and breed true.

But isn't it still just a less saturated light brown?

 

[Miami Leghorn]

They're not trying to get goldens like the silver/gold cockerels.
The goal is the goldens like oversees that show in both sexes and breed true.

Its going to be tough. I'm considering somewhere down the line reaching out to someone overseas to see how they got there.

 

[The Moonshiner]

But isn't it still just a less saturated light brown?

The problem is if you ask 3 different breeders what a golden is they'd probably show you 3 different birds.
Myself I don't consider any of them a diluted or less saturated brown.
The Golden you referred to from crossing a brown and silver I say looks like a yellowish version of silver. I've had many.
My ideal golden would be with the bright gold tones like the one in Miami's avatar.
I myself was excited about making a version at least somewhat similar to it but IDK exactly how to go about it myself. I've had many an expert talk with me about them but nothing pans out to produce them.
I glimpsed something from @ChicKat in a post that I'm gonna have to go back over.
If anyone can dig up the details of them I'd place my money on her finding it.