Layer feed and breeding/roosters

[Shamo Hybrid]

I don't believe in the kidney damage by over-consumption of calcium by rooster theory. It's just a scare tactic to sell more variety of feeds. Sure if one consumes a ginormous amount of calcium..... like say, an alcoholic with his alcohol, then I'm sure it might have an effect..... but to say just a little over what is the norm will cause certain death, I highly doubt it! SCARE TACTIC, I sayz!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

@ChickenCanoe
What do you think of mixing layer and starter to reduce the calcium levels for the Roo’s, I worry that keeping everyone on the 22% unmediated starter would be maybe potentially unhealthy as well?

That is a good approach. It isn't an either or situation.
It is important to know that all chickens require essentially the same nutrients all their lives. There are subtle differences in vitamins, most minerals, fats and fiber - depending on what is being fed(age, sex, species).
Where the dramatic differences are is protein and calcium. I frequently mix feeds.
What you are suggesting will work. Mixing layer with starter at about 50:50 will net a feed that is about 2.5% calcium and 19% protein. That will be better for all parties involved.
Baby chicks can make use of 22% protein but they quickly outgrow that phase.
I know plenty of people here feed what IMHO is excessive amounts of protein and they will disagree with me.
Roosters are not only better off with about 1% calcium, when mature their sweet spot is about 13-14% protein. That type of feed isn't available to the general public. However, commercial breeders of egg and meat birds who feed their males and females separately, produce just that type of feed in their mills for the males.
While excessive calcium will cause urolithiasis and eventually visceral gout in most lines of male chickens, excessive protein will cause articular gout.
Any protein above what a bird can use for body growth and maintenance will end up wasted in the feces and becomes ammonia in the bedding.
I may be blessed with 3 feed stores within a half hour from my house and between the 3 there is a good variety of feed. I used to have access to more variety when I had a feed co-op but I can't currently buy enough feed to make it worthwhile.
Something that is sold in the US is Finisher Feed. That is usually 15% protein. It is adequate for birds in the 14-18 week age group and the last week or so of a broiler's life.
Purina makes a 12.5% protein game bird maintenance feed and if I'm feeling wealthy that day, I buy it to mix with other feed for my roosters.

I usually have between 30 and 100 chickens and I probably don't buy more than 2 or 3 bags of layer feed a year.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I don't believe in the kidney damage by over-consumption of calcium by rooster theory. It's just a scare tactic to sell more variety of feeds. Sure if one consumes a ginormous amount of calcium..... like say, an alcoholic with his alcohol, then I'm sure it might have an effect..... but to say just a little over what is the norm will cause certain death, I highly doubt it! SCARE TACTIC, I sayz!

So what I'm hearing is that you don't believe in science. Is that the case?

I don't recall anyone saying feeding "just a little more than what is the norm will cause certain death".
Just a little more than 1% would be perhaps 1.5%.
4% is four times the norm.
That's 4% of the entire intake consisting of a single mineral. It is mind boggling to feed that to an animal that can't utilize it.

Other than water, fats and fiber, there are 39 nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino acids) chickens are known to need in their diet. If any single one of those other nutrients were consistently in the diet at 4%, that would be certain death.
Can you imagine a feed that is 4% vitamin E, copper, sodium or chlorine?

 

[Shadrach]

That is a good approach. It isn't an either or situation.
It is important to know that all chickens require essentially the same nutrients all their lives. There are subtle differences in vitamins, most minerals, fats and fiber - depending on what is being fed(age, sex, species).
Where the dramatic differences are is protein and calcium. I frequently mix feeds.
What you are suggesting will work. Mixing layer with starter at about 50:50 will net a feed that is about 2.5% calcium and 19% protein. That will be better for all parties involved.
Baby chicks can make use of 22% protein but they quickly outgrow that phase.
I know plenty of people here feed what IMHO is excessive amounts of protein and they will disagree with me.
Roosters are not only better off with about 1% calcium, when mature their sweet spot is about 13-14% protein. That type of feed isn't available to the general public. However, commercial breeders of egg and meat birds who feed their males and females separately, produce just that type of feed in their mills for the males.
While excessive calcium will cause urolithiasis and eventually visceral gout in most lines of male chickens, excessive protein will cause articular gout.
Any protein above what a bird can use for body growth and maintenance will end up wasted in the feces and becomes ammonia in the bedding.
I may be blessed with 3 feed stores within a half hour from my house and between the 3 there is a good variety of feed. Something that is sold in the US is Finisher Feed. That is usually 15% protein. It is adequate for birds in the 14-18 week age group and the last week or so of a broiler's life.
Purina makes a 12.5% protein game bird maintenance feed and if I'm feeling wealthy that day, I buy it to mix with other feed for my roosters.

Interesting that you are one of the few people I’ve read here that realises that excess protein is excreted. Chickens are like humans in this respect, they can only process a certain amount in a given period of time. For a human of average weight if my memory serves me it’s about 35 grams in a two hour period. I don’t know the amount for chickens.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

That's cause I've studied poultry nutrition for decades.
Not to mention that I'm also a human nutrition Nazi.
I worked in the industry programming the mills for the largest commercial egg and meat producers. I also worked in the tropics feeding and caring for hundreds of endangered scarlet and great green macaws. If you don't get that right, you are having devastating effects on the eco-system.

Immature game birds can utilize lots of protein, chickens can't.

 

[Shadrach]

Working in the tropics with wild birds must have been interesting.

 

[Shamo Hybrid]

That's cause I've studied poultry nutrition for decades.
Not to mention that I'm also a human nutrition Nazi.
I worked in the industry programming the mills for the largest commercial egg and meat producers. I also worked in the tropics feeding and caring for hundreds of endangered scarlet and great green macaws. If you don't get that right, you are having devastating effects on the eco-system.

Immature game birds can utilize lots of protein, chickens can't.

Then where are all your data sheets to prove that extra calcium intake by a rooster means certain death?? You must have done some sort of study on this and have statistics to prove, no?

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I posted one earlier in this thread. Perhaps you didn't read it.

 

[Shadrach]

Then where are all your data sheets to prove that extra calcium intake by a rooster means certain death?? You must have done some sort of study on this and have statistics to prove, no?

I can dig up a few dead roosters that were otherwise healthy for you to examine.

 

[Melky]

So what I'm hearing is that you don't believe in science. Is that the case?

I don't recall anyone saying feeding "just a little more than what is the norm will cause certain death".
Just a little more than 1% would be perhaps 1.5%.
4% is four times the norm.
That's 4% of the entire intake of a single mineral. It is mind boggling to feed that to an animal that can't utilize it.

Other than water, fats and fiber, there are 39 nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino acids) chickens are known to need in their diet. If any single one of those other nutrients were consistently in the diet at 4%, that would be certain death.

Most layer feed is 3 % calcium not sure where the 4% comes from. Also where is a scientific article stating not to feed layer feed to a rooster? I do agree with the young lady that a grower feed might be ok for both rooster and the hens right now as her next step if reluctant to feed layer feed. Most roosters will not eat oyster shell if provided on the side. Also since she has hens housed separately and is considering breeding programs the simple solution is to create a bachelor pad for the roosters as she will need to protect the purity of the breed to avoid barnyard mixes that are difficult to sell if own multiple breeds. People want purebreds. She can place roosters with matching breed when she wants to breed then she can feed them separately. This may be another option.