Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by EdenCamp, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. EdenCamp

    EdenCamp Chillin' With My Peeps

    What I know is there are a number of vet conferences coming up where this incentive will be a prime topic. I believe I have the one in FL Jan being participated in by a major breeder that lives in the area. Hoping to get them speaking at the conf. or at least bringing up concerns on the floor. There is another in Vegas in Feb still working on getting that one covered.

    I know there will be a great deal of scrutiny and oversight, at least initially, on vet practices so getting cooperation from vets may be an issue. Can't blame them for protecting their licenses.

    I know when I had a necropsy done and 3 types of worms I had no clue were an issue in my flock were found - the State Vet where I had this done recommended Fenben and Safe-guard Goat wormer (which dosen't treat tapes) and had never heard of Valbazen which does. He also advocated Oregano use for general health. Holistics are not without merit - but documentation from reliable sources is harder to come by - and the quacks abound (Don't get me started on DE as a wormer again),

    As far as expiration dates, there is supposed to have been a confidential study done by the military to find out what the REAL shelf life of medications are. There was a nurse who leaked some of the info found - so yes, part of expiration dates is a gimmick to move more product. Safe to assume some do break down faster than others and the possibility of becoming dangerous or at least harmful could be present. Read labels. Call or write manufacturers. They have answers.

    I did include a link for the FDA's list of drugs affected, dunno if you've had time to look through it all. I was given access to the RX data base commonly used for vet meds - it contains some 6,000 products along with listing species for authorized use. So I have the ability to dig through for products, search by compound, search by species etc on it. And of course I started with the most commonly used for poultry meds I'm aware of - which is where my table came from listing on and off label species for those meds. So when I say the manufacturers have no idea of how their previously OTC were really being used or how extensively, the guy relating this to me heard it directly out of the mouths of the CEOs/Presidents themselves. And yes, I've also written to the FDA and AG Depts.

    For those that go the all natural route. Great. Lot to be said for that. I started out that way myself. Then I educated myself. There really is no getting around the need for wormers. Preventatives will only go so far. Poultry have worms. 9 varieties of cocci - they are everywhere, pretty much no getting away from it. When, not if, when a virus, bacteria or parasite hits your flock it becomes a case of treat quickly and appropriately or they die (at least a great percentage). Breeding for resistance with an estimated 95% of backyard flocks have MS/MG/CRD or something along those lines (again not here to argue the exact %) it's prevelant, breeding for resistance is not going to save someones beloved pet struggling with it. Bio-security goes a long way towards keeping the nasteys away but few really fully practice it. Even major hatcheries take the breed for resistance approach and feel a disservice to customers were they to send out "clean" birds. But again, I'm not here to say any one approach is the answer for all. Animal husbandry and management is about making those choices for yourself. Informed is always a good thing tho.

    So as far as who I am, I'm just another hobbiest/breeder wanting the best care for my animals/birds with the same bugetary constrictions. concerns and vet access/training issues as most of the rest of you. The difference is research and designing systems is what I did for a living, govt compliance and regulatory oversight are familiar territory. And too, I've self vetted multiple species as a breeder for 25 years. My concern is our animals will suffer with the gap between what has been and what needs to be because of this far reaching change. There's no question there has been abuse with ready access to vet OTCs or damage done with incorrect information tossed around on the internet by the well intentioned but misinformed. Getting from one point to the other, facilitating the transition with the least harm to our pets and livestock is what I am trying to help with here. I don't have all the answers, heck, I'm sure I don't even know all the questions! But channeling information as a bridge is what I can do and is what I am trying to accomplish.
  2. JanetMarie

    JanetMarie Overrun With Chickens

    Oct 23, 2014
    For the first time in keeping chickens the past 8 years I had to put one on antibiotics, but would rather have taken her to a vet. than researching which antibiotic and how much to give myself. The vet I did have that saw chickens retired, and I haven't found another. I suppose vaccinating, and giving flea and tick medications to cats and dogs is an easier living.

    I do things organically, so giving an antibiotic is absolutely a last resort.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  3. Blooie

    Blooie Team Spina Bifida Premium Member

    Feb 25, 2014
    Northwestern Wyoming
    My Coop
    And I am as sure as I can be that someday I'll face some kind of emergency situation with my flock and will very likely wish I had some of those things on hand. But the issue for me is not knowing who the enemy is - what I'm actually fighting so I can make the best and safest choices for my chickens and my family. I ain't always the brightest crayon in the box, and looking at my birds then looking at a symptom chart to choose what might be the problem just doesn't reassure me much about the accuracy of my choices. I would far rather go to a professional and say, "This is what she's doing, this is when it started, and this is her environment and diet." and let him/her make the call. But that's in a perfect world, and as backyard chicken owners most of us don't have that option. So I just blindly hope that day never comes, which is a pretty lame way to be responsible for the lives and well-being of other critters.

    I am so glad that you are willing and able to do this research. Do you have any idea how valuable that is? So you just keep channeling away, with my respect and gratitude, and I'll follow along as I can.
  4. EdenCamp

    EdenCamp Chillin' With My Peeps

    Yep, thanks. The trouble is lack of "experts" or avian training. In my entire state there are 8, 8 avian vets. The closest 100 miles from me. I can't even get swab or blood testing done close by by a vet. Expired birds have to be driven or shipped for a necropsy. So I really have no choice but to educate and treat myself - and work to establish a relationship with a vet closer by that will work with me. Not the first time I've had to train my vet! So getting the manufacturers and vets up to speed is something that there just wasn't incentive for before. Now the game has changed. We need them to step up and step into the void created. When you are trying to save Henretta from death - you need to be able to go to a vet that is up to speed to do so. They need the knowledge to treat and best medications approved available to use.

    Now I will say this, makes a big difference the point and type of flock one has. Raising meat birds is a quick in and out. Raising egg layers for personal use or selling eggs another. Usually, yes, you absolutely want to go as natural as possible with those. It's the whole point of raising your own. Much as you hate to lose a favorite, small backyard flocks that most people have if you have to start over it's not catastrophic. You spend $3-4 per chick and lose 5 months growing them out to laying age again or bite the bullet and spend $5 - $25 for a laying age bird.

    Rare breeds, exoctics, show birds another story entirely. You don't just run down to the local farm store and plop a few dollars down. There are breeders that have worked on projects for a decade that can be wiped out to ground zero in no time. Others that have developed their own line that have invested years and uncounted (or pass out from shock) thousands to do so. Sure, I eat a cockerel or cull on occasion. Ever have a pretty expensive omlet once in awhile. But rather than start from ground zero it makes more sense with my flocks to be proactive and on top of any illness when encountered.
  5. shortgrass

    shortgrass Overrun With Chickens

    Mar 14, 2015
    Northern Colorado
    True, I can see where for a person who has a small flock for pet/egg/meat, it could cause frustration trying to find assistance.

    I'm blessed with not just one, but 3 great vets that not only specialize in cattle, but one is very good with birds. If I need necropsies irctests, CSU is not too far away, so if I were to need something, I can call and get it pretty quick.

    But I'm an organic producer, so not only is most of it not even ALLOWED, I will kill off generations worth of microbes in our soil.

    Yep lol, my dad is a retired Agronomy professor, and I majored in microbiology; there is no way I would ever even get away with it, knowing g the ins and outs of the system like my dad does, its a wonder why the FDA waited this long...

    I do, however, applaud sites like these for helping out new owners or individuals putting their brains together to find a solution when there doesn't seem to be one in sight. Maybe this will be a good pysh for education. Overuse of antibiotics, wormers, etc; leading to resistance and need for stronger and more, when the whole cycle can be stopped and prevented from soil level UP.

    The DH pegged it when he said "now your sister can't go get her horse pills", ... I wonder if misuse from humans not just overusing it on animals, but using it on THEMSELVES that has something to do with this?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  6. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member Project Manager

    Jun 24, 2012
    My Coop
    Sad, but true... A huge part of the reason that they don't impove is that don't have access to decent drugs that they can give orally or by injection, or they use them incorrectly, like when they try treating something like E.coli, pseudomonas or something similar with Tylan. [​IMG]

  7. Sonya9

    Sonya9 Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 7, 2014
    Jones County, Georgia
    I don't treat the "whole flock" for vague illnesses (we do have Marek's but that doesn't respond to antibiotics, I have tried antivirals on specific birds though).

    But in the event of a sudden emergency, such as a dog/predator mauling with puncture wounds, being able to provide antibiotics to prevent a serious infection is IMO vital, and it can't wait a couple of days until the vet opens on Monday. My birds are pets (only have one producing eggs at the moment) so I am not worried about keeping them "organic", but if one is severely injured I want to give them the best chance for recovery.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  8. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member Project Manager

    Jun 24, 2012
    My Coop
  9. Ifish

    Ifish Chillin' With My Peeps

    Feb 28, 2015
    Seems to be more "Do as we say, not as we do" "We know better than you" mentality from our overlords.
  10. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member Project Manager

    Jun 24, 2012
    My Coop

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