Pecking Order and Breeding

[ZZZ]

I am wanting to try my hand at breeding on the smallest of scales, and could use some advice on setting up the pen/s and managing the breeding...

I've recently completed my first two mini hatches, using eggs from a local breeder. (Picture of a few of them attached, just for fun.) Taken together with our existing flock, I'm expecting to end up with about a dozen hens and two roosters (a Black Copper Marans, and a Cream Legbar). I know from reading here on BYC that I am pushing it with my hen to rooster ratio, and I may very well downsize to just one rooster soon enough. But I'd really like to be able to breed both roosters first (and thereby increase the number of hens and better the ratio, without having to purchase more fertilized eggs).

Currently, we have a pen that would be big enough to house them all together, but of course we'll need a different set-up if we're breeding with two roosters. One thing (of many! ha!) I don't understand is how the pecking order is affected/managed as different groupings of chickens are moved in and out of breeding pens. Help!?

Any and all thoughts would be super appreciated! I've got lots of time to plan this out and build accordingly, as the babies won't be mature until late summer/fall. (I also haven't decided whether I'd hatch eggs in the fall/winter, with all the extra accommodations that would be needed to nurture babies through our long, cold, Southern Idaho winter -- or wait until spring.)

Thanks in advance for any input!

** As a side note, I may have an extra rooster in each of the following breeds if anyone nearby is interested: Black Copper Marans, Welsummer, and Blue Laced Red Wyandotte. They're currently age 2-6 weeks. I want to hold onto them all a while longer until I'm sure of what we've got, but would be happy to share any deemed "extra" at no cost. **

 

[Ridgerunner]

You may already know this but I'll go through it anyway. It takes an egg about 25 hours to go through a hen's internal egg making factory. That egg can only be fertilized during the first few minutes of that journey. That means if a mating took place on a Wednesday, Wednesday's egg is not fertile from that mating. It can't be. Thursday's egg might or might not be depending on timing. Do not count on it. Friday's egg should be fertile.

This is after a mating. A rooster does not necessarily mate with every hen in the flock every day, but he doesn't have to. In the last part of the mating the rooster hops off, his part is done. The hen stands up, fluffs up, and shakes. This fluffy shake moves the sperm to a container near where the egg starts its internal journey. This sperm can remain viable for 9 days to over three weeks. It varies but somewhere in that window. If you want to be pretty sure of which rooster is the daddy you need to keep that hen separated from any other rooster for at least three weeks. To be extremely sure some people wait four full weeks.

I don't now what your plans are as far as which rosters mate with which hens. This information may help you plan that.

Many people on this forum believe in magic. They believe there is some magic in a hen to rooster ratio as far as rooster's fighting, hen's being over-mated, or hens becoming barebacked. There is not. If roosters are going to fight over the girls they'll fight whether there is one girl or thirty. People that have one rooster with thirty hens have the same mating and barebacked issues as people with one rooster and two or three hems. My typical laying/breeding flock is around one rooster and 6 to 8 hens, about your ratio. I don't have those issues. One secret to that is to use mature hes and roosters. Immature pullets and cockerels tend to behave more like spoiled bratty children than responsible adults. That's where most of those horror stories on here come from, immature pullets and cockerels.

I don't understand is how the pecking order is affected/managed as different groupings of chickens are moved in and out of breeding pens. Help!?

You are dealing with living animals so no one can give you any guarantees as to their behavior. When you remove chickens from the flock the pecking order is readjusted, especially if a high ranking chicken is removed. When you put them back the pecking order is adjusted again. They don't always wind up back in the spot they left. Usually with hens that is not that big of a deal. There can be some pecking and intimidation, maybe even a small skirmish, but it's usually resolved pretty quickly and with no bloodshed. Like everything else the more room they have the better. The tighter the space the more the risk, but even with a lot of good room it's always wise to check on them occasionally. Usually doesn't mean always.

If you separate two roosters for a while there is a fairly good chance they will fight when you put them back together. It could be a fight to the death, one could get seriously injured. Most of the time it doesn't take long for one to decide he's better off running away than to continue fighting. Usually they work out an accommodation on how to take care of the flock together. Here especially the more room the better. I'm not talking about a few square feet per chicken but more like can they get out of each other's sight. Some can handle it in much tighter quarters, some can't. The only way to find out what will happen with yours is to try it. Observe and have a plan B ready. Plan B means separate them.

I don't know what will happen. Quite often these things work out with a lot less drama than you expect, but not always.

I also haven't decided whether I'd hatch eggs in the fall/winter, with all the extra accommodations that would be needed to nurture babies through our long, cold, Southern Idaho winter -- or wait until spring.

Some of us hatch in winter and brood the chicks. In Arkansas I always had a hatch in February and my brooder was in the coop. My temperatures didn't get that much below 0*F and there were challenges but you can do it. It's easier in the spring when temperatures are warming up. I don't know how late you'd have to wait in Idaho for that to make a lot of difference.

 

[Mrs. K]

I will just make some suggestions - my two cents, take it if you want.

Getting roosters is relatively easy. And any rooster will breed any and all hens. Those eggs can hatch, and you get barnyard mixed birds. If you can tell who's egg is who's, well then you really don't have to separate your hens at all. If you want purebred hatching, just add that rooster to the flock, removing the other rooster wait 3-4 weeks, and then hatch the eggs that come out of the hens that match the rooster.

Now the easiest way, is to just keep one rooster. Hatch that breed that year... then switch out or get a new rooster of the second breed, and hatch that breed that year. This will really help you keep track with how old each hen is.

You can keep your roosters in a bachelor pen, either by them selves, or together the rest of the time.

It is just another way. The thing about keeping multiple roosters, is that often they don't agree about sharing hens. Or being together. If you are new to this, I would recommend just having a hen flock for the first year, and getting some experience. Then adding a single rooster the next year, then maybe the third year, adding another rooster. You have years to do this hobby, and it is best to work your way into it.

Mrs K

 

[ZZZ]

You may already know this but I'll go through it anyway. It takes an egg about 25 hours to go through a hen's internal egg making factory. That egg can only be fertilized during the first few minutes of that journey. That means if a mating took place on a Wednesday, Wednesday's egg is not fertile from that mating. It can't be. Thursday's egg might or might not be depending on timing. Do not count on it. Friday's egg should be fertile.

This is after a mating. A rooster does not necessarily mate with every hen in the flock every day, but he doesn't have to. In the last part of the mating the rooster hops off, his part is done. The hen stands up, fluffs up, and shakes. This fluffy shake moves the sperm to a container near where the egg starts its internal journey. This sperm can remain viable for 9 days to over three weeks. It varies but somewhere in that window. If you want to be pretty sure of which rooster is the daddy you need to keep that hen separated from any other rooster for at least three weeks. To be extremely sure some people wait four full weeks.

I don't now what your plans are as far as which rosters mate with which hens. This information may help you plan that.

Many people on this forum believe in magic. They believe there is some magic in a hen to rooster ratio as far as rooster's fighting, hen's being over-mated, or hens becoming barebacked. There is not. If roosters are going to fight over the girls they'll fight whether there is one girl or thirty. People that have one rooster with thirty hens have the same mating and barebacked issues as people with one rooster and two or three hems. My typical laying/breeding flock is around one rooster and 6 to 8 hens, about your ratio. I don't have those issues. One secret to that is to use mature hes and roosters. Immature pullets and cockerels tend to behave more like spoiled bratty children than responsible adults. That's where most of those horror stories on here come from, immature pullets and cockerels.

I don't understand is how the pecking order is affected/managed as different groupings of chickens are moved in and out of breeding pens. Help!?

You are dealing with living animals so no one can give you any guarantees as to their behavior. When you remove chickens from the flock the pecking order is readjusted, especially if a high ranking chicken is removed. When you put them back the pecking order is adjusted again. They don't always wind up back in the spot they left. Usually with hens that is not that big of a deal. There can be some pecking and intimidation, maybe even a small skirmish, but it's usually resolved pretty quickly and with no bloodshed. Like everything else the more room they have the better. The tighter the space the more the risk, but even with a lot of good room it's always wise to check on them occasionally. Usually doesn't mean always.

If you separate two roosters for a while there is a fairly good chance they will fight when you put them back together. It could be a fight to the death, one could get seriously injured. Most of the time it doesn't take long for one to decide he's better off running away than to continue fighting. Usually they work out an accommodation on how to take care of the flock together. Here especially the more room the better. I'm not talking about a few square feet per chicken but more like can they get out of each other's sight. Some can handle it in much tighter quarters, some can't. The only way to find out what will happen with yours is to try it. Observe and have a plan B ready. Plan B means separate them.

I don't know what will happen. Quite often these things work out with a lot less drama than you expect, but not always.

I also haven't decided whether I'd hatch eggs in the fall/winter, with all the extra accommodations that would be needed to nurture babies through our long, cold, Southern Idaho winter -- or wait until spring.

Some of us hatch in winter and brood the chicks. In Arkansas I always had a hatch in February and my brooder was in the coop. My temperatures didn't get that much below 0*F and there were challenges but you can do it. It's easier in the spring when temperatures are warming up. I don't know how late you'd have to wait in Idaho for that to make a lot of difference.

Wow! I am SO grateful for your thorough and wonderful reply!!

I loved how you said there's no magic to it. You've given me confidence to give things a try and just always be ready with a Plan B. I sometimes fall prey to analysis paralysis, so I appreciate the common sense boost!

I'm going to keep thinking it all over, but for now am planning to have 2 large coops/pens with one big run:

(We have a 3 sided, four bay shop. The chickens have 2 bays to themselves, and their pens/runs are/will be built inside of that area.) Each pen would have 6 or 7 hens and 1 rooster, so they would effectively be separated into 2 little flocks.

The roosters would always stay separate, but I would mix up the hens that are with them now and then (following the fertilization timelines you shared). In winter, the "little flock" from pen #1 would be let into the run for the first half of the day, and the "little flock" from pen #2 would be let into the run for the second half of the day. In better weather, the "little flocks" would take turns in the run and free ranging. (We live on a couple acres and are surrounded by farmland as far as the eye can see; lots of coyotes and hawks here, so free ranging is too dangerous in the winter months.)

I'd like to go ahead and hatch through the winter, but am worried about power outages. I like having the baby chicks in the house for the first few weeks, but would want to have them in the pen with a heat source after that. We have a generator, but there's always the chance the power could go out when I'm not aware of it, like at night, and not get the generator in place in time. I'll have to ponder this part some more.

Just one more question, if I may. At what age would you consider hens and roosters to be mature?

Again, thank you SO much for taking the time to help me out like this!! MUCH appreciated!!

 

[ZZZ]

I will just make some suggestions - my two cents, take it if you want.

Getting roosters is relatively easy. And any rooster will breed any and all hens. Those eggs can hatch, and you get barnyard mixed birds. If you can tell who's egg is who's, well then you really don't have to separate your hens at all. If you want purebred hatching, just add that rooster to the flock, removing the other rooster wait 3-4 weeks, and then hatch the eggs that come out of the hens that match the rooster.

Now the easiest way, is to just keep one rooster. Hatch that breed that year... then switch out or get a new rooster of the second breed, and hatch that breed that year. This will really help you keep track with how old each hen is.

You can keep your roosters in a bachelor pen, either by them selves, or together the rest of the time.

It is just another way. The thing about keeping multiple roosters, is that often they don't agree about sharing hens. Or being together. If you are new to this, I would recommend just having a hen flock for the first year, and getting some experience. Then adding a single rooster the next year, then maybe the third year, adding another rooster. You have years to do this hobby, and it is best to work your way into it.

Mrs K

Thank you thank you thank you! SUCH helpful advice!!

I really like your idea of just taking things slow, and keeping one rooster per year. I am a "quality over quantity" type of person by nature, so I felt my shoulders relax the moment I read this suggestion!

As I was sharing in my reply to @Ridgerunner, I'm thinking of setting up the pens like so:

I was planning on creating 2 "little flocks", but I could try putting all the hens in coop #1 (they'd have plenty of room) and the roosters in coop #2, then just let the "rooster of the month" into the run with the hens.

I'm still mulling it all over, and might just go the "one rooster" route for now, but I'm already having a hard time letting go of 2 of the 4 breeds of roosters we've hatched, and deciding on the two I want to keep. I've been caring for my little flock of 5-6 laying hens for half a year, and the roosters I've hatched won't come to maturity until late summer or fall, so I'll have been chicken keeping for almost a year by the time I'm trying out this whole breeding thing!

One last question, if that's okay... Where would you normally get a mature, pure bred rooster from? And do you put any stock in the idea that if you raise them from the day they're hatched you're more likely to get a better tempered/better behaved rooster?

Again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your response! I'm so grateful!

 

[aart]

a Black Copper Marans, and a Cream Legbar

You can make Olive Eggers!
Sexlinked if you use BCM x CL.

 

[Ridgerunner]

At what age would you consider hens and roosters to be mature?

Good question. I generally consider pullet's to be mature about when they start to lay, usually within a couple of weeks. That one is easy. I think it is the hormonal changes that come when they start producing eggs.

Who knows with cockerels? I've had some start puberty at 12 weeks. I've had some that didn't start puberty until 5 months or more. That's just start. I've had one act mature at 5 months, one that didn't until 11 months. Some people I trust on here say they've seen it take longer than that.

A cockerel is hopped up on hormones. These hormones are telling him to dominate the flock. There are different parts to that. If there are other cockerels around they will determine who is boss. That sometimes means serious fighting, maybe to the death. But usually it doesn't take that long before one of them decides it's better to run away than keep fighting. This is where having lots of room helps, they need room to run away and get away. Mature roosters do the same thing. If you toss two together they will determine which is boss. What makes cockerels seem so bad is that they start puberty at different ages so as different ones mature you see more fights.

The important thing about puberty and maturity is how they treat the girls and how the girls see them. A mature rooster should take care of his flock. He should find the girls treats, provide some flock security (mostly as a look-out in my experience), break up fights, and keep peace in his flock. Some help hens find a good place to make a nest, some help broody hens take care of their chicks. After a hen lays an egg and sings the egg song he may get her and escort her back to the flock. Most roosters don't do all of this but it's the kind of thing I mean by taking care of his flock.

Importantly, he should be able to WOW! the girls with his magnificence and self-confidence. Some hens will squat for anything in spurs but many want a rooster that will be a good father for their children. So they resist his advances. He is bigger than them so he is more likely to resort to force rather than personality to mate them.

I consider the mating act to be about dominance more than fertilizing eggs. In the mating act the one on bottom is accepting the dominance of the one on top, wither willingly or by force. With mature roosters it's usually willingly. With immature cockerels it's usually not willingly so they resort to force. That can get fairly violent. As someone on here said watching chickens go through puberty is often not for the faint of heart.

I think the girls have a part to play in this too. Some will squat for anything in spurs, some really resist submitting to even a mature rooster. They want to be flock master themselves. It takes a pretty strong rooster to get them to submit, sometimes that means force. It's usually not that bad, most hens aren't like that to an extreme, but some are usually harder than others. Some will squat willingly, but others may run away when even a mature rooster shows interest. Sometimes he will chase them down,, sometimes let her go, but as long as the hen squats when he catches her it's all good. There can be a huge difference in personalities between your hens. Flock dynamics can be fascinating to watch.

I consider a rooster mature when the flock is peaceful. He will keep the eggs fertile, that's one of his responsibilities. But he is not violent or obsessed with that. The hens accept his leadership. I've had a five month old cockerel do that. I've had one not win over all of the hens until 11 months. That dominant hen had a pretty strong personality. Most of mine can do that around 7 months, but it can really vary.

 

[Mrs. K]

And do you put any stock in the idea that if you raise them from the day they're hatched you're more likely to get a better tempered/better behaved rooster?

No, I don't. Chickens raised together really has little influence once they hit puberty. Space is a much bigger issue. Often times people think they can cheat on space if they raise them together and it does not work. Or if they are friends as chicks, they will maintain that friendship, but that is not true either.

Roosters raised as brothers can become mortal enemies. It is not a given that they will, but it is a very reasonable chance that they will fight. Sometimes they fight once, and that is enough, sometimes they fight until one is dead.

I think you get the best roosters when raised up in a multi-generational flock. And I think you get the worst roosters when you raise them up with flock mates, but there are exceptions to each. Roosters are a crapshoot, always have a plan B.

A rooster raised up under birds that are bigger than they are, have some manners thumped into them. Roosters raised up with flock mates, quickly become the biggest, toughest thing in the flock, and often become bullies. As attached as you are now to your rooster chicks, some roosters become human aggressive, and most people underestimate the violence of a rooster attack. If you have children under the age of 6, that attack could be in the face.

It is your flock and you can sure try your plan, but I would not expect it to work. I think it will cause a lot of fighting. Roosters do not understand the idea of sharing, or taking turns or this number of hens is enough. Each rooster wants all of the hens, and will fight for that. If you have a large flock, a huge amount of space, a lot of hideouts, and escapes well then you can have multiple roosters. But in confinement, (and a couple of hours out free ranging does not count) less roosters are best.

With them penned next to each other, they are only going to be focused on getting in with the hens and fighting with each other. You could tape cardboard or plywood up between the pens, so they could not see the hens, but I think they will hear and smell them. It will be pretty difficult to keep them apart when you go into feed and water them.

I always recommend, no roosters the first year, then add some chicks (pray for a broody) then next year, a couple of those will be rooster chicks. Let them grow up in the flock, culling any that are not working. Then the next year, hatch your own. This will give you time to get some experience.

Mrs K

 

[ZZZ]

You can make Olive Eggers!
Sexlinked if you use BCM x CL.

Yes!! I'm excited to try! I'm also hoping to see if CL + Welsummer = speckled green eggs!?

 

[ZZZ]

At what age would you consider hens and roosters to be mature?

Good question. I generally consider pullet's to be mature about when they start to lay, usually within a couple of weeks. That one is easy. I think it is the hormonal changes that come when they start producing eggs.

Who knows with cockerels? I've had some start puberty at 12 weeks. I've had some that didn't start puberty until 5 months or more. That's just start. I've had one act mature at 5 months, one that didn't until 11 months. Some people I trust on here say they've seen it take longer than that.

A cockerel is hopped up on hormones. These hormones are telling him to dominate the flock. There are different parts to that. If there are other cockerels around they will determine who is boss. That sometimes means serious fighting, maybe to the death. But usually it doesn't take that long before one of them decides it's better to run away than keep fighting. This is where having lots of room helps, they need room to run away and get away. Mature roosters do the same thing. If you toss two together they will determine which is boss. What makes cockerels seem so bad is that they start puberty at different ages so as different ones mature you see more fights.

The important thing about puberty and maturity is how they treat the girls and how the girls see them. A mature rooster should take care of his flock. He should find the girls treats, provide some flock security (mostly as a look-out in my experience), break up fights, and keep peace in his flock. Some help hens find a good place to make a nest, some help broody hens take care of their chicks. After a hen lays an egg and sings the egg song he may get her and escort her back to the flock. Most roosters don't do all of this but it's the kind of thing I mean by taking care of his flock.

Importantly, he should be able to WOW! the girls with his magnificence and self-confidence. Some hens will squat for anything in spurs but many want a rooster that will be a good father for their children. So they resist his advances. He is bigger than them so he is more likely to resort to force rather than personality to mate them.

I consider the mating act to be about dominance more than fertilizing eggs. In the mating act the one on bottom is accepting the dominance of the one on top, wither willingly or by force. With mature roosters it's usually willingly. With immature cockerels it's usually not willingly so they resort to force. That can get fairly violent. As someone on here said watching chickens go through puberty is often not for the faint of heart.

I think the girls have a part to play in this too. Some will squat for anything in spurs, some really resist submitting to even a mature rooster. They want to be flock master themselves. It takes a pretty strong rooster to get them to submit, sometimes that means force. It's usually not that bad, most hens aren't like that to an extreme, but some are usually harder than others. Some will squat willingly, but others may run away when even a mature rooster shows interest. Sometimes he will chase them down,, sometimes let her go, but as long as the hen squats when he catches her it's all good. There can be a huge difference in personalities between your hens. Flock dynamics can be fascinating to watch.

I consider a rooster mature when the flock is peaceful. He will keep the eggs fertile, that's one of his responsibilities. But he is not violent or obsessed with that. The hens accept his leadership. I've had a five month old cockerel do that. I've had one not win over all of the hens until 11 months. That dominant hen had a pretty strong personality. Most of mine can do that around 7 months, but it can really vary.

Thank you VERY much for this!! Now I know what to look for!! Awesome, awesome information. I'm so grateful!