prayer warriors (following Jesus Christ, everyone welcome)

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lazy gardener said:
Where do the individual's rights to wear what he/she wants end, and when does it become ok to correct someone?
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There is a book called, Under the Overpass, two college men decide to go homeless for the summer and live on the streets in six different cities.
One Saturday evening they find a church and camp on the lawn, planning on attending the service the next morning. A deacon who was in charge of their "mission efforts to the homeless" walks up to the young filthy students (Sunday morning) camped on the lawn and asks them to leave.

Billy Graham once said, "the best place to conduct your missionary efforts is in your church".

Interesting study, maybe @lazy gardener would get her husband involved, is to list the ancestors of Jesus and the sins they committed. Why would God choose those people? One of the reasons we know the Bible is true is because of the embarrassing facts about the characters, no one will make up a legendary fiction novel and make themselves look bad.
 
Jesus Prophesy Study #17 "be hated without reason"

Old Testament:

Psalm 35 NASB
19 Do not let those who are wrongfully my enemies rejoice over me;
Nor let those who hate me without cause wink maliciously.

Psalm 69 NASB
4 Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;
Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies;
What I did not steal, I then have to restore.

New Testament:

John 15 NASB
24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’
 
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lazy gardener said:
I think that the "what you wear, including hair style, jewelry can become a matter of legalism.  There is a man at my church, who I have the greatest admiration for.  Back in the day, when there were more men who showed up in suit and tie, or at least dress pants and tie, he'd show up in a pair of jeans and a flannel shirt.  Other times, he'd show up dressed semi formal with a bow tie.  When asked about his varied attire, he responded thus:  "I think it's important to not let our attire become a stumbling block.  If most men in church dress formally, I will dress informally."  If the trend changes, and most men show up in jeans and flannel shirts, you may see me in a suit and tie."  He cited the example of the early church when a ragged visitor was directed to the back of the church instead of sitting in the front where he had first chosen a seat.  He said, "I want every visitor to feel welcome."  This man was a church Elder.  He and his wife would often invite any new visitors home to share lunch with them after the service.  I've rarely met a couple who were as gifted in the art of hospitality, and sharing Christ through living example.  An other man, dressed in very flamboyant clothing.  He sometimes would show up with a mohawk, which would change color with his mood.  He had a flashy cane, often dressed in tasseled leather vest with spikes all over it, sometimes had an outrageous hat, tight leather chaps, boots that would draw attention in any crowd.  Other times a black T-shirt with a Christian logo, or perhaps a very graphic portrait of Jesus suffering on the cross.  Other times, it would be vivid purple flourescent paisley pants.  His face was horribly disfigured, with half of his jaw missing.  He'd lost that side of his face and most of his tongue to cancer at a young age.  He was hard to understand.  Yet, with his disfigurement, he would sing his heart out to the Lord.  We had a couple who showed up every week wearing huge fuzzy character slippers.  She was morbidly obese, so she could not wear shoes.  So, she figured, if I can't wear shoes, and have to wear slippers, at least I'll make them "fun" slippers.  And to support his wife, so she wouldn't be the only one in fuzzy slippers, he'd wear them also.  So, in they'd come, wearing huge Tazmanian devil slippers.  In all these attires, it's what's in the heart that matters.  

Now, here's my question.  Where do the individual's rights to wear what he/she wants end, and when does it become ok to correct someone?  Specifically... how far should a young lady be allowed to go with short skirt, revealing midriff, skin tight clothing, showing lots of cleavage?  At what point do we correct such a person, and possibly give her an excuse to avoid church and God for the rest of her life, or at what point do we wait it out, and wait for the Holy Spirit to convict her?  At what point does her self expression need to be checked at the door of the church because it is a stumbling block to the men???  Moving forward from that question:  At what point does clothing that is a bit revealing become inappropriate, and when is it ok?  Think on that a bit.....    Moving on.  When I went to Guatemala, several years ago in July, for a work based mission trip, our team struggled with choosing appropriate clothing that would be cooling and yet modest.  We get to church.... A very powerful, worship filled, Holy Spirit filled 3 hour service, and I see more cleavage there than I've ever seen in my life.  This is cultural.  Hispanic women, at least in those hot climates, show much more skin than we  consider to be appropriate at church in the US.  And there are other cultures that show even more skin.  Now, how to answer that question as Jesus would????  I don't have an answer to the word picture I painted of the young lady  at a US church.
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I knew we could count on you to explain that ;)

I can tell a story from personal experience... I'm good at telling stories ha-ha ;)


Back when I was pink haired and expressing myself, part of the ensemble was little tiny cropped tee shirts, to show off my belly ring, of course.... I was hanging out with the older crowd, less than proper for a girl my age at that time. There was a man, in his 30s, with a nice wife and 2 twin boys, cute little guys..anyway, this man and I became close. His wife found out and called me an adulteress. I was mad, shocked, hated by this uppity religious woman who had a man that couldn't control himself and sgechad the nerve to call ME an adulteress?!?! I couldn't even wrap my mind around how I could be an adulteress when I wasn't even married ...

Fast forward 15 years, I'm in the middle if a failing marriage because my husband couldn't stop cheating on me. He would blame the girls, young girls, wearing.little skirts and low rise pants showing off thong strings etc.. I was going through exactly what I had put that poor woman through when I was younger. And I was shattered. It destroyed my marriage. My husband admitted he had problems controlling himself. If he had been able to resist temptation, we wouldn't have been so bad off. But if the girls he was seeing weren't tempting him so badly, he wouldn't have been so weak. Women were made to be pleasing to a man's eyes, and it can be taken advantage of. Out if respect for others and not to offend, I dress MUCH more modestly now that I'm older and a mom and wife.


Now, my current husband has respect for my body and requests that I cover it. I don't even go swimming because I don't want to lure a man's eyes to my body when he may have a wife, and I have a husband. DH won't even go to my moms when my sister visits because she wears almost nothing. It's not because he can't help from looking, because he can. He doesn't want to disrespect my brother in law by seeing his wife's half naked body.

Modesty. I learned the hard way how easy it is to forget that in the throes of expressing myself, I caused other people to sin, unknowingly.
 
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A sticky wickett for sure. We are told to dress modestly. Then, it goes back to the fact that the commandments of the NT are for the believer. In no way am I in any way shape or manner condoning provocative dressing. Because I will be the first one to point out that in many many many TV programs, especially the adventure based ones, the guys are running around in sensible clothes, doing all of their adventure stuff, and the women, who may be running around doing the same stuff, are dressed like prostitutes. Why is it that women on TV are expected to "show it all" and how does that add to the story????

Now, tainted characters in the geneology of Jesus. Interesting, I can find plenty written about the women, but little about the men. So, I'll include the men attached to these women. We can add other men later.

Bathsheba: Wife of Uriah the Hittite, stolen into adultery by David, who then saw to it that Uriah was killed in battle because Bathsheba became pregnant. David, while described as a man after God's own heart has a lot of documented sin in his accounts. When David was dancing and worshiping God in the streets, Bathsheba tried to shame him.

Sarah: Wife of Abraham. A child was promised to Abraham and Sarah. They waited and waited and waited. Sarah became impatient and had Abraham take her servant Hagaar to produce the child that she had not yet conceived. She took God's promise into her own hands and tried to fulfill the promise in her own power. Oh how different our current world be if she had not done that. Abraham lied on at least 2 occasions, placing his wife at risk to save his own hide. Calling her his sister while they were traveling, so she was taken into the enemy's household to become part of the harem. Not exactly how I'd want my husband to take care of me.

Tamar: She had been married to one of Judah's sons. He died. As was the custom according to the law, the younger son married her. He died. Tamar was childless. Judah should have had his third son marry her. He refused. She took matters into her own hands, and posed as a prostitute. Judah readily submitted to her enticement. She became pregnant and gave birth to Perez.

Rahab, the prostitute of Jericho. She knew what was to follow when the spies entered her city.
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof9 and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea[a] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.[b] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
12 “Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.”
14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the Lord gives us the land.”
15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”
17 Now the men had said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If any of them go outside your house into the street, their blood will be on their own heads;we will not be responsible. As for those who are in the house with you, their blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on them. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.”
21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.”
So she sent them away, and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

Just a few of the people who were blessed to share in the geneology of Jesus. Why are they there? Perhaps to point out that there are none righteous, no not one???

The scarlet cord: I believe it is symbolic of the redemption of the shed blood of Jesus, which, by faith saved the household of Rahab.
 
@shortgrass Wow, I'm always shocked at how far you and your husband take stuff! Talk about some major insecurity...

You can dress modestly AND go swimming!! That's kind of sad.

And why not ask your sister to put some clothes on as a kind gesture so you can hang out as a family?

I can honestly say that we too were quite strict and Bible thumping with our kids.... It made them angry and resentful towards God and I don't blame them! It is important to find a happy medium, which of course does not include compromising who you are.

It's good to follow the rules and laws.... but we are living under GRACE, does your husband understand that? Acting all holier than thou, which I feel assured he does, does NOT lead people to Christ. Ugh.... I get a sense of David Koresh when I think about your "small church" and all the other teachings.
hide.gif
I'm surprised you can handle that. Your husband sounds much more controlling than leading. You my dear.... ARE a much stronger lady than I am!

After I got married, I (unintentionally) took on the persona of my Hubby which was very uptight and "righteous", not at all the fun loving, nonchalant, happy person I was. Suddenly I had the weight of the world on my shoulders and was a very uptight person. One day during a fight I told my husband "I gave my whole life for you". I realized I wasn't living for God or myself but for my husband who was my only ally and trusted person. But I was going about it all wrong. We aren't supposed to become our husbands! They married us for who we are. We still need to have our own interest, likes, and dislikes. We are supposed to compliment each other! I know, I know... the two shall become one flesh....

Listen, I'm sorry.... It really is none of my business! I don't know why I feel drawn toward you
hugs.gif
and I'm sorry it always sounds like attacks. I assure you, I have ZERO room to talk! Plenty of points in my life that need correcting. I have lots to grow still. I'm OK if you need to call me out about something of my own.
wink.png


You seem like a very smart, caring person with lots of vivid experiences that might make you able to connect with people in a way that a suit and tie won't. But being all stuffed up with rules and small family might not be leading others to Christ.
hu.gif
Like you sister... what if she sees you being happy and God centered instead of God centered and judgey to the point your too good to go to your mom's church? I know that isn't the case and you have other things you are working out about it... I'm talking about what someone on the outside looking in thinks?

Yes, I led the wild life to (piercing, tattoos, drugs) .... and then grew up. The stories I could tell are blackout horrendous. How I'm alive today, ONLY GOD KNOWS. But I know in my heart that I didn't come through where I've been to alienate those like me. Everybody has different callings on their life though and different experiences. I wouldn't want your husband to be where he is very uncomfortable.... although, when we ARE stretched out of our comfort zone is when we grow the most!

He does sound very loving and loyal, plus most importantly... he Loves you and he Loves God. Please don't think I mean otherwise or have bad thought about him. (that would be stupidity on my part) I know you take things in stride, so I won't be expecting you to be stewing over this either.
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lazy gardener said:
A sticky wickett for sure. We are told to dress modestly. Then, it goes back to the fact that the commandments of the NT are for the believer. In no way am I in any way shape or manner condoning provocative dressing. Because I will be the first one to point out that in many many many TV programs, especially the adventure based ones, the guys are running around in sensible clothes, doing all of their adventure stuff, and the women, who may be running around doing the same stuff, are dressed like prostitutes. Why is it that women on TV are expected to "show it all" and how does that add to the story????

Now, tainted characters in the geneology of Jesus. Interesting, I can find plenty written about the women, but little about the men. So, I'll include the men attached to these women. We can add other men later.

Bathsheba: Wife of Uriah the Hittite, stolen into adultery by David, who then saw to it that Uriah was killed in battle because Bathsheba became pregnant. David, while described as a man after God's own heart has a lot of documented sin in his accounts. When David was dancing and worshiping God in the streets, Bathsheba tried to shame him.

Sarah: Wife of Abraham. A child was promised to Abraham and Sarah. They waited and waited and waited. Sarah became impatient and had Abraham take her servant Hagaar to produce the child that she had not yet conceived. She took God's promise into her own hands and tried to fulfill the promise in her own power. Oh how different our current world be if she had not done that. Abraham lied on at least 2 occasions, placing his wife at risk to save his own hide. Calling her his sister while they were traveling, so she was taken into the enemy's household to become part of the harem. Not exactly how I'd want my husband to take care of me.

Tamar: She had been married to one of Judah's sons. He died. As was the custom according to the law, the younger son married her. He died. Tamar was childless. Judah should have had his third son marry her. He refused. She took matters into her own hands, and posed as a prostitute. Judah readily submitted to her enticement. She became pregnant and gave birth to Perez.

Rahab, the prostitute of Jericho. She knew what was to follow when the spies entered her city.
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof9 and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea[a] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed.[b] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
12 “Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them—and that you will save us from death.”
14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the Lord gives us the land.”
15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”
17 Now the men had said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If any of them go outside your house into the street, their blood will be on their own heads;we will not be responsible. As for those who are in the house with you, their blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on them. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.”
21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.”
So she sent them away, and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.

Just a few of the people who were blessed to share in the geneology of Jesus. Why are they there? Perhaps to point out that there are none righteous, no not one???

The scarlet cord: I believe it is symbolic of the redemption of the shed blood of Jesus, which, by faith saved the household of Rahab.
Click to expand...

Good post, but it was Michal, David's first wife and daughter of Saul who didn't like David praising God in the streets, not Bathsheba. Read 2 Samuel 6.

2 Samuel 6:16 As the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Again, good post. I enjoyed it!
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