Starting to get paranoid about using things like diatomaceous earth on my chickens :(

[Disintegration]

So, after revisiting some articles warning about the dangers of Diatomaceous Earth, and now I've successfully managed to freak myself out over chemicals that could make me sick.

Any reccomendations for things to prevent mites that won't kill
me in the future? This kind of stuff manages to freak me out a lot, so using better products would be more reassuring

 

[rosemarythyme]

Permethrin isn't a preventative - if you don't have mites, no benefit in using it. It may be relatively harmless to the birds, but will kill bugs both detrimental and beneficial, like bees.

 

[Blooie]

Has anyone actually used DE and gotten sick from it? Or their birds? (Sorry for hijacking the thread )

ME!!! I did!! WARNING: Long post.

I’m not sure where the idea that DE is a “chemical” came from. I guess in the broad sense that practically everything has some sort of chemical makeup, but DE is not a manufactured chemical. It’s just skeletons….tiny, ancient, microscopic skeletons with sharp points and edges. It’s those sharp points and edges that work against soft-bodied insects by piercing them so they basically dehydrate. Bees are also soft bodied insects, so contact with DE is just as dangerous to them as it is to the pests you’re really trying to kill. And it rips delicate mucus membranes to shreds. Oh, not dramatically, but little by little.

The sharp points on those microscopic skeletons can cause serious lung injury, not just to us but to our flocks as well. I used to swear by DE - from the time my first chicks went outside I used that stuff everywhere. It was in the litter, on the roosts, in the dust baths, even directly on a chicken if she seemed to be scratching a lot. When they started laying, I put it in the nests too. I did this for over a year.

Now, in the interests of full disclosure and before I explain why I say I believe I have been sickened by DE, I do have pre-existing lung and cardio issues. Those issues were just diagnosed the very year I got chickens. So back to the heavy use of DE…. Despite having it everywhere in the coop and run, I ended up with the worst and most persistent mite infestation you can imagine. Our yard is liberally dosed with trees, large old trees. Very large trees. That means lots of wild birds nest in them and use them to find food and shelter. And I believe THAT’S where the mites came from in the first place. There were just so many mites that the DE was rendered virtually useless. We treated the birds, cleaned out the coop and run, and put down more DE, once again spreading it everywhere. It did no good. But it was having an effect on my breathing. I was relying more and more on my nebulizer and fast acting inhalers. Was I allergic to my chickens? I didn’t know.

One day I went out to gather eggs and put more DE down. I was wearing a bandana over my face because the bag warns of respiratory dangers. I reached inside that bag for the cup we used to spread it and stopped dead. The words on the back of the back flashed in front of me…”Can cause respiratory distress”. Duh, DIane! What in the heck are you DOING?? That was the end of my reliance on DE. At my next pulmonary appointment two weeks later, when I told Dr. Rein that I seemed to need my breathing aids more than usual, she started asking about environmental changes. I mentioned the DE and asked if that could contribute. She gave me a resounding “yes”. She also said that even people with no pre-existing lung issues could pay dearly for continued use. AND THE DAMAGE IS IRREVERSIBLE. Pierced lung sacs do not regenerate.

I still had the issue of a coop and run full of DE to deal with. And we still had mites. So wearing respirators, hubby and I stripped that coop completely early one morning. We power washed it inside and out. (That’s fun with dirt floors!) We removed nests, feeders, roosts - anything that could come out did come out and those things were power washed as well. DE is ineffective when wet so it helped that the dust was kept down. Things dried out quickly in the hot sun. We mixed up a sprayer with Neem oil and a little dish soap (to help it stick on vertical surfaces) and sprayed every crack and crevice. We put just a thin layer of litter laced with Permethrin Dust down because we knew we’d have to remove it all in 10 days anyway. That night we dusted the birds with Permethrin Dust. I filled an old sock with it, grabbed each bird one by one off the roost, hung them upside down by their feet so their feathers were open - um, they protested this indignity - and pounced the dust onto them. Ten days later we repeated the entire process. We also sprayed Neem Oil on the bark of the trees close to the coop. After that I kept that old sock full of dust so at the first sign of mites I could take immediate action. We‘d gotten a handle on the mite issue, but the accelerated lung issues remain for me.

DE scares the pee-waddin’ out of me. And there’s another risk to using it - complacency. If we rely on a bag or bottle full of anything to prevent problems, we soon assume the problem won’t exist. “I’ll never have mites (or worms or lice in my coop because I always use _________ to prevent it”. We stop checking. And a few mites that could easily have been dealt with in a couple of treatments become a full blown infestation requiring weeks, or even months to eradicate. Mites exist. We’ll never totally eliminate them. But we can control them and control the effect they have on our flocks by being observant and proactive. They are not worth risking lung function over.

 

[aart]

Permethrin isn't a preventative

Yes, using an insecticide as a preventative can actually create resistance,
so it won't work if and when you really need it.

So, after revisiting some articles warning about the dangers of Diatomaceous Earth, and now I've successfully managed to freak myself out over chemicals that could make me sick.

Any reccomendations for things to prevent mites that won't kill
me in the future? This kind of stuff manages to freak me out a lot, so using better products would be more reassuring

Sounds like maybe you are paranoid about mites too.....or do your birds actually have them?

Check your birds regularly, then treat if necessary(using permethrin, not DE).

My Bug Check notes:
Have you checked them over real well for mites and/or lice?

Google images of lice/mites and their eggs before the inspection so you'll know what you're looking for.

Part the feathers right down to the skin around vent, head/neck and under wings.

Best done well after dark with a strong flashlight/headlight, easier to 'catch' bird and also to check for the mites that live in structure and only come out at night to feed off roosting birds.

Wipe a white paper towel along the underside of roost to look for red smears(smashed well fed mites).

Good post about mite ID by Lady McCamley:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/my-chicken-has-mites-now-what.1273674/page-2#post-20483008

 

[Ridgerunner]

now I've successfully managed to freak myself out over chemicals that could make me sick.

Then don't use chemicals unless you actually have a need. If you have a need use something specifically for that purpose in a safe way.

As Aart mentioned, by using chemicals when you don't have to you are helping create strains harder to treat so you need nastier chemicals to manage them when they do show up.

As Rosemary said, using chemicals can harm beneficials and the environment. It's not just the bees, fish and such in water are really susceptible to rainwater runoff so follow directions. Don't fall for the trap of absolutely soaking everything, it usually doesn't take much to be effective. Follow directions and only treat when you need to.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Lots of us use Permethrin Dust, or spray to treat our birds for mites/lice. Diatomaceous Earth as little too no effectiveness against the bugs.

It's harmless to the birds, & no egg withdrawal period.

Like other pest control products, wash hands, & clothes after use, or wear protective gear to avoid washing things, & keeping it out of your eyes, & off your skin.

 

[Aunt Angus]

Mites won't live on you, but they can still bite you. Until I realized I was being bitten by northern fowl mites and treated the flock for them I accumulated numerous bed bug-like bites as my hubby was accidentally bringing them in the house and then they were biting me in bed.

Oh, yikes!!!!!

Yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck

I change my mind. I love chemicals.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll go through my thought process on why I decided to not use DE. Everybody needs to go through their own process and follow their own logic. I understand my logic often makes no sense to many people. We are all different.

1. First, I read the warnings on what precautions industrial workers that work with food grade DE need to take. Yes, FOOD GRADE. It involves breathing PPE (Personal Protective Equipment)

2. I read things like this about asbestos. I understand that not everybody that worked around asbestos came down with any of these diseases but many do. To me the "at least 10 years" means more than "can take as long as 35 years". I know DE is not asbestos (that's why it can be sold as it is) but the similarities are close enough for me to consider it.

All diseases caused by asbestos (including mesothelioma, lung cancer, and asbestosis) have an exceptionally long latency period. Lung cancer caused by asbestos can take as long as 35 years to develop. The amount of time the disease spends in latency is affected by how much exposure you’ve had to asbestos, and whether or not you have smoked. Smoking can promote the effects of carcinogens in the production of cancer.

Once asbestos fibers have been inhaled, their jagged microstructure can cause them to attach to the lung tissue. However, the actual development of lung cancer takes a long time. In order for lung cancer to be attributed to asbestos exposure, doctors say at least 10 years must have passed from the time of exposure to development of the cancer. Lung cancer has the highest chance of developing 30 to 35 years after exposure.

Tumor development usually begins after the asbestos fibers have caused enough:

• Irritation
• Inflammation
• Genetic damage

3. This was the hard one, you get so much conflicting information on the internet. I tried to figure out how DE is supposed to work. I think moisture is critical. For example, if it goes through your digestive tract the digestive juices should keep it wet so it doesn't do any damage to your system. Dry in the lungs is different.

4. I can identify other methods that I consider safe if I follow safety protocols that I know are effective. You should not breathe some of them either.

I personally did not see any good reason to use DE so I don't.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Permethrin isn't a preventative - if you don't have mites, no benefit in using it. It may be relatively harmless to the birds, but will kill bugs both detrimental and beneficial, like bees.

I didn't see the prevent portion of the post until now, but it can help reduce the mites if they're there when used routinely when it's needed.

 

[rosemarythyme]

Lice and mites are ICKY *shudder*. But they are poultry-specific, if that helps. They may get on you while you're treating your birds, but they won't live on you. Made me feel better to know that.

Mites won't live on you, but they can still bite you. Until I realized I was being bitten by northern fowl mites and treated the flock for them I accumulated numerous bed bug-like bites as my hubby was accidentally bringing them in the house and then they were biting me in bed.