The IMPORTED ENGLISH Orpington Thread

[BamaChicken]

Delisha your blue Cock is very pretty and has great color

 

[15littlem]

I take it that no one knows of buff mottled or any other sort of mottling other than black and Jubilee?

 

[delisha]

Thank you..
He is a gem..Growing out nicely..
Marc send me some nice birds..
I love the little Pownall black pullet he sent too..she is such a good mom.

 

[Christabelle]

I take it that no one knows of buff mottled or any other sort of mottling other than black and Jubilee?

Saw some lavender mottled chicks on rare breed auctions.

 

[jeremy]

Interesting debate boykin2010, though flawed, IMO.

Different breeders have different opinions on how you make certain colors... some breeders breed understanding a chicken's genotype while others solely rely on the birds phenotype. For those following along genotype speaks to the genetic make up of a living organism, basically the "meat" on the inside of everything that shapes how the bird looks. Phenotype essentially is just the outward appearance of any living organism. Breeders who breed in this fashion don't necessarily take into consideration different genes that come into play (such as recessive genes, etc) because they cannot see them. They literally breed based on what they see alone.

So I can understand how you would think this bird is Crele.

This color looks like Crele, right? Sorta...

But it's not. This bird is Buff X Cuckoo. If all you know is phenotypes than you can easily confuse this color with Crele- genetically though it is something completely different. I have said it a million times and I will say it a million more times in order to continue to try to educate others in order to have a 100% true breeding (generation after generation) Crele bird your foundation stock must be Cuckoo/Barred X Partridge. You can not have a Crele bird with any other combination. At least not a bird that genetically is truly Crele. You might be able to accomplish some wild breeding feat where you breed any random two colors together and make a version of Crele that looks similar but the accepted idea of the genetic make up of Crele birds in the United States (how I understand it, from research and talking to those in-the-know) is Cuckoo/Barred X Partridge.

Buff X Cuckoo WILL NOT breed true. With each generation you will have offspring that looks different from their parents. They might look similar but they won't be the same. They may be pretty but that doesn't make them something that they aren't.

I feel like we're beginning to beat a dead horse with this Crele subject... so take what you will from my observations, at the end of the day folks can breed what they want to breed and call their birds whatever they want and that's completely okay as long as you (speaking generally here not directed towards anyone) are not marketing your birds as something that you do not genetically have. That's where things can get sticky.

Now circling back around to Legbar, I honestly have no idea how you could create a bird that looks like that using Buff X Cuckoo X Gold Laced but I'm no geneticist. I'm just a somewhat informed hobbyist.

I have some theorys... Buff as a color masks a lot of different genes and the make up itself is very complex but I don't want to ramble and try to decipher the make up on an open forum. All I'm saying is, is it possible? Maybe. Maybe Legbar Orpingtons aren't genetically the same as Crele Orpingtons. Maybe the breeders in Europe penned a bunch of birds together and started breeding and then eventually worked their way towards the color we have today. I don't know, I wasn't there. Here's where we go back to genotype vs. phenotype.

Legbar, IMO looks a lot like Crele (Cuckoo/Barred X Partridge)... so I'm basing my opinion when calling them the same color on phenotype. I could be right, I'm sure there are breeders in Europe and here in the States that would support my claim and I'm sure that there are others that would dispute it. I haven't mapped the genome for Legbar chickens so I don't know with 100% certainty what colors are in their background. So that's that. It's my belief that they are genetically the same as Crele- Cuckoo/Barred X Partridge. ETA: I think you also have to consider that somewhere along the line the genetic makeup for Legbar Orpingtons might have changed. Maybe they didn't initially begin with a Partridge base but over the years maybe Partridge was bred in to help stabilize the color? We can't know exactly what was used initially and then what was added into the mix along the line to create the color and moving forward today it could be a completely different make up altogether.

I can tell you this, I could make a bird that looks identical to the imported Legbar Orpingtons by breeding Cuckoo/Barred X Partridge and if I had the time/money/space right now I would order a Cuckoo pair from Marc and a Partridge pair from Greenfire just to prove my point. Because I'm that stubborn.

That's all.

 

[jeremy]

I take it that no one knows of buff mottled or any other sort of mottling other than black and Jubilee?

I'm sorry, I only have knowledge concerning Black/Blue Mottled birds, not Red or Buff Mottled.

I like to learn though, so I'll do some digging...

 

[jeremy]

I also want to mention, one of the things that draws me most to the Crele Orpingtons is the fact that they are auto-sexing, at least in theory...

 

[vebyrd36]

Hay everyone. Some new Pics of my ELCO







VIVI

 

[BamaChicken]

A few of my 4 day olds. I have some really nice blue and splash chicks growing out and just put four black Orp eggs in to hatch. Sure am hoping they all hatch but sad that only one of my hens is laying. I want some off of them all. These were the only fertiles for last week and all hatched. I am having more fertiles every week when I candle. Spring time makes things work so much better for the older Cocks for my birds anyway.

 

[jeremy]

Beautiful butterball babies Julie!