I agree Silverfox--- You should stick around. Everyone should. Rational discourse doesn't require the need to be confrontational IMO.
The Legbar Thread!
- Thread starter jeremy
- Start date
Don't get me wrong I didn't decide to move from this thread as I didn't want to help
I DO WANT TO HELP that's why I got involved
I just felt that my help was not appreciated
if I was given advice and help I usually take it with a large thank you and then decide what I want to do with that advice
I certainly wouldn't totally disregard it
I decided to investigate the website that is being referred to so much on this thread
http://blue-eggs.co.uk/
so I emailed her and within half hour she called me on the phone
Lovely Lady
her lines come from a recognised breeder that is well known in the Legbar community... which she has bred to a near perfect standard using the UK SOP as her guide
quote from her site
Quote:
she explained to me she doesn't like to refer to her stock as a particular persons line but rather her own line and so rightly too
as she carried on explaining that she breeds her birds and any bird that is slightly off in colour not have a straight comb or pullet laying a green egg and not blue is culled
so in effect she has maintained the line from her understanding of the British SOP
All her pullets lay only blue eggs and she only sells and sends blue eggs
so I took the plunge and I will be receiving 6 blue Cream Legbar eggs from her on Friday
£21 delivered was a very reasonable price for her eggs as they are of great quality if going by her gallery pictures. plus she mentioned that her eggs she will send me are from her pullets and not her hens. which is better as it will be nice fresh blood
I just hope they hatch after the shipping (I was in 2 minds of fetching them but thought oh well let them be posted) we shall play Legbar Roulette LOL
i'll be setting on Saturday
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Just to comment on the below, plus some other points put foreward. I agree that if you start with a good quality to standard cream legbar male and good quality to standard cream legbar female, you most likely, will make the same. I agree that this is not where it began in the USA. "A glitch" or otherwise is an explanation that we may never have true answers to. Although some (like those that sold and purchase these birds) may know more about the starting stock, I believe this is a dead horse. On the whole we are not going to get an answer this is how the "glitch" happened because the "glitch" is prevalent in the UK, as well.
Where we can concentrate ourselves and what is concrete, is that improvement is necessary. I agree that it is wonderful personal and business choice that Greenfire Farms is adding in a higher quality line of cream legbars. This will be a hard choice for many. Do you spend several hundred dollars for a CL upgrade or do you work on your own? It depends on the asking price, how much it matters to you, and what you think your odds of improvement are. Some CL male and females here do have decent coloration and/or type.
Genetics is like probability. What you know helps. For me it's akin to counting cards or doing a risk or probability analysis. This gives you an advantage, a way to think about outcome, but certainly not a guaranteed result. That's more about how the cards are shuffled.
Chickens are biological. What is dealt out is somewhat random. There is so much hidden within genes and our understanding is not complete. When I read about Barbara McClintock's work describing transferrable genes or jumping genes with corn, I think truly I will never understand all the details of this universe. When I look at a Punnet square I think, yes that's nice, but maybe not the full picture. Genes are complicated. So what a breeder knows is that some actions are better to take then others, some things more possible or likely, but never what exactly two birds mated will produce. So many folks are going to try different things, but that is why we focus on a standard as a result.
Also, for better or worse, the British Poultry Standard indicates that female chicks have a light head spot that is visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background. In my mind a tiny head spot on the female is correct by BPS. I am unaware that the Am. SOP utilizes chick down, so discussion on down is more for USA breeders to correlate chick down to adult appearance. In my experience correlations are just that. In biology there's often more gradients, how often does x mean y? Always, or does x just most likely or more likely mean y, or sometimes, or is it never likely?
Just also to add in, the BPS talks about down color and describes the stripe, ground color, and head patch. Eyeliner is not mentioned as an autosex trait for cream legbars.
Also for the sake of saying it, no one here has at this time said anything that bothers me at all. Opinions, passions, knowledge, theories and writing styles differ. Overall, it's purposeful and helpful and I appreciate everyone who is contributing.
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yes im not near clued up in genetics as maybe some of you guys
but the cream legbar was a 20 year long refinement by punnet
and the nature of the breed and the auto sexing ability should be as I have seen here as simple as get a good quality male specimen and a good quality female specimen and due to its years of refinement and breeding true abilities
the offspring should be true and pretty much correct without leakage or decolouration
The only thing I see Is somewhere down the line a glitch in the breed has occurred and its unknown to the breeders
the truth is that USA stock needs better Birds. refining a bird that was already refined cannot be re-refined if its gone wrong
it needs getting rid of and starting again
in UK there are some top quality breeders and Legbar are readily available so my stock I don't need to fix it or clean it or refine if its wrong I just get shot of it and start again
if USA breeders don't wish to do that then good luck to you I cant make you or force you.
Emily is not stupid she is an award winner and still she is so humble that on the phone today she said im not an expert when I spoke to her and said I believe your a Legbar expert
the important thing she said was what I posted before about not being able to refine the gold or darker barring and she knows what she is talking about
Where we can concentrate ourselves and what is concrete, is that improvement is necessary. I agree that it is wonderful personal and business choice that Greenfire Farms is adding in a higher quality line of cream legbars. This will be a hard choice for many. Do you spend several hundred dollars for a CL upgrade or do you work on your own? It depends on the asking price, how much it matters to you, and what you think your odds of improvement are. Some CL male and females here do have decent coloration and/or type.
Genetics is like probability. What you know helps. For me it's akin to counting cards or doing a risk or probability analysis. This gives you an advantage, a way to think about outcome, but certainly not a guaranteed result. That's more about how the cards are shuffled.
Chickens are biological. What is dealt out is somewhat random. There is so much hidden within genes and our understanding is not complete. When I read about Barbara McClintock's work describing transferrable genes or jumping genes with corn, I think truly I will never understand all the details of this universe. When I look at a Punnet square I think, yes that's nice, but maybe not the full picture. Genes are complicated. So what a breeder knows is that some actions are better to take then others, some things more possible or likely, but never what exactly two birds mated will produce. So many folks are going to try different things, but that is why we focus on a standard as a result.
Also, for better or worse, the British Poultry Standard indicates that female chicks have a light head spot that is visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background. In my mind a tiny head spot on the female is correct by BPS. I am unaware that the Am. SOP utilizes chick down, so discussion on down is more for USA breeders to correlate chick down to adult appearance. In my experience correlations are just that. In biology there's often more gradients, how often does x mean y? Always, or does x just most likely or more likely mean y, or sometimes, or is it never likely?
Just also to add in, the BPS talks about down color and describes the stripe, ground color, and head patch. Eyeliner is not mentioned as an autosex trait for cream legbars.
Also for the sake of saying it, no one here has at this time said anything that bothers me at all. Opinions, passions, knowledge, theories and writing styles differ. Overall, it's purposeful and helpful and I appreciate everyone who is contributing.
--------
yes im not near clued up in genetics as maybe some of you guys
but the cream legbar was a 20 year long refinement by punnet
and the nature of the breed and the auto sexing ability should be as I have seen here as simple as get a good quality male specimen and a good quality female specimen and due to its years of refinement and breeding true abilities
the offspring should be true and pretty much correct without leakage or decolouration
The only thing I see Is somewhere down the line a glitch in the breed has occurred and its unknown to the breeders
the truth is that USA stock needs better Birds. refining a bird that was already refined cannot be re-refined if its gone wrong
it needs getting rid of and starting again
in UK there are some top quality breeders and Legbar are readily available so my stock I don't need to fix it or clean it or refine if its wrong I just get shot of it and start again
if USA breeders don't wish to do that then good luck to you I cant make you or force you.
Emily is not stupid she is an award winner and still she is so humble that on the phone today she said im not an expert when I spoke to her and said I believe your a Legbar expert
the important thing she said was what I posted before about not being able to refine the gold or darker barring and she knows what she is talking about
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While my first hatch of legbars is lacking physical perfection, they have several things going for them. They are of good temperament, healthy and vigorous, were clearly autosexing, and the pullets lay beautiful blue eggs, and lots of them. They are a very satisfactory start. Remember that even breeders of the most close-to-ideal specimens of any breed may have to hatch a hundred chicks or more just to get a trio. And by breeding selectively, each generation will be better. Please don't spend too much time frazzled about color, or about the failings of this first or second generation. As we follow birds from chicks into the next generation, we will learn what works and what doesn't. Since we don't have the advantage of buying exceptional birds, we will just have to build them ourselves.
Good for you! So glad you're still willing to discuss with us. As much as I love Cream Legbars there is no way I am able to put up several thousand dollars plus the time and contacts to import new birds for myself. So as others have stated we have what we have and it will be up to us what we do with it. I'm very optimistic we have some good things going for us in our US stock, and with the new lines Greenfire Farms is bringing in from Jill Rees I think we can certainly get some great birds with a little new blood in a year or two after we've worked a little with what we have.
How exciting you're getting eggs directly from her, her birds on the website are just gorgeous!!!
Good luck with your hatch!!! Yes, Jill is an amazing person. Hope you get a LOT of really nice chicks for your flock even though roulette. So - you will continue to hang out here and post etc. -- good. And when those eggs hatch -- pictures please.
Yeah - Why all the tizzy about colours? When we have autosexing, blue-egg laying, healthy, funny, fecund, fertile birds to work with? Color is only 20 points of the 100 on the scoring sheet for chickens isn't it? You would think nothing else was there if you read the threads
Here is the UK judging points distribution.
Shows the points given to Cream Legbars in UK shows: also some of the Standards and other info:
Note : This is a crested variety laying a blue, green or olive egg.
Standard Weights: Cock: 7 to 7½ lb; Cockerel 6 to 6½ lb .
Hen: 5 to 6lb; Pullet 4½ to 5lb
SCALE OF POINTS
Type 30
Colour 20
Head 20
Legs 10
Condition 10
Weight 10
100 Points
Serious Defects: Male's comb twisted or falling over. Ear lobes wholly red. Any white in face. Legs other than orange, yellow or light willow. Squirrel tail.
Defects(for which a bird may be passed): Side sprigs on comb. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. Crooked breast. Wry tail. Any bodily deformity
What we should be paying the MOST attention to IMO is type. AND I hope that we don't go that route where people loose the good qualities just to get showey birds. JMO. ;O)
BTW - how do the judging points get set up? Is it APA or does the club petitioning for the APA recognition submit the judging points along with the application for acceptance?
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Hey redchicken9 - good hearing from you. I got a bit confused as to what was your input and what was quote from Silver Fox.
Just a question for all. (not to try to contradict Emily) -- if the cream gene is recessive, and a gold looking bird has it -- one actually COULD obtain cream from gold according to genetics couldn't they? Just saying if two birds had recessive wouldn't some of the offspring get two recessives. C'mon you Punnett's square experts...c'mon you math majors---what is the probablity? 25%?
Just a question for all. (not to try to contradict Emily) -- if the cream gene is recessive, and a gold looking bird has it -- one actually COULD obtain cream from gold according to genetics couldn't they? Just saying if two birds had recessive wouldn't some of the offspring get two recessives. C'mon you Punnett's square experts...c'mon you math majors---what is the probablity? 25%?
Well yes and no. Since there is no way to tell which birds carry the recessive cream if they all have gold hackles it would be a shot in the dark and LOTS of test mating to separate the single gene carriers from the ones with no cream at all. In fact it would be possible if you JUST focused on other issues and ignored the cream to lose the cream gene entirely, although not likely. And you wouldn't even know it until you started breeding towards Cream unless you brought in new blood that carried two copies to reintroduce it.
well I'm not afraid to be the bad guy, we have had rather nice Pm's. you know your thoughts are appreciated and my stance has been that no one person here is my diva. and i would never disregard someones thoughts as i have seen yours disregarded and debated quiet often from only ONE person i believe.
As all flocks are different and genetics can throw curve balls everyone here knows what they are talking about in my mind. Everyones observations have merit. Its like you say take the advice, give a thanks, and then see how it sits in your mind and your flock. But to debate like a hurt/offended attack dog isn't needed.
Nor should we throw someones advice or thoughts in their face and make them prove their theory with words, letters, or fancy symbols we can accept. Schooling is nice and can be very helpful, but the power to observe and then use common sense usually will make anyone succeed which is why everyones observations have merit.
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