The Legbar Thread!

[lonnyandrinda]

Truly a long and arduous path to acceptance! Thanks again to those who have worked so hard to develop a standard that the APA will find acceptable. Remember, this is a document that may stand for a hundred years or more, so there is no need to be hasty in finalizing it, as changes would be very difficult later. The committee has done an excellent job mulling over the fine points, I am sure in their valuable spare time. However, the US standard as written now is clear and an excellent guideline to follow as we make our way towards acceptance.

I integrated my 3 - 2 1/2 month olds into the pen with my November hatch birds, so far everyone is doing OK - the older cockerel in that pen (one of the original 3 juvenile delinquents) spends most of his time fence-fighting with the Basque rooster in the next pen, so he is not so interested in the newcomers.

Exactly. And what we have put together is just a Proposal- not the done deal. We need people to look it over, look at the British standard and birds, and look at their own birds, all with a good critical eye. It has been said before that creating a standard to fit the birds in you backyard will not make them true Cream Legbars. That is why we are aiming for the British Standard. The one we have put together may not be perfect but I think it is very good. And Steen I too do not see where it differs from the British, except we omitted olive eggs. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go read the SOP discussion from the beginning- and you will understand why it fits the way it does, the difficulties we ran into, and how we made our decisions. I changed my mind on several points on this journey as you will see through the discussion.

 

[CibolaChooks]

I 2nd your call out to redchicken9 and KPenlley. It was, I'm sure, at times a tedious effort and took a lot of their personal time but it has given Legbar breeders interested in APA acceptance a path to follow and a common goal which should help stream line the process so we can have a more uniform group of birds going forward. And it is very much aligned to the British SOP. There was great discussion, debate, and then an overall consensus on what was adopted to give us a starting point for the process. The differences thus far are due to the language restrictions and we dropped olive eggs from the standard.

They need to keep all their hard work that they have done, but i wouldn't finalize anything and i hope the American standard is very much open to changes for at least a few more years, No one knows what changes those will be till we are closer to trying for APA acceptance. so don't ask me what needs to be changed or ask for input i have no clue and neither does anyone else,

One is having a written, agreed-on proposed standard for that breed or color. Something that at least half the population follow by quite well.

Another is I believe 5 years background. I believe you need several breeders with 5 years experience on the breed or color to vouch for it.

Oh yeah, and once it gets known enough, there comes a time of assessment where at a show, many people may present their bird of that color or breed and have it assessed. If there is a good enough majority or uniformity shown, it will pass on go on to the next step of acceptance. For example, French Marans are awaiting to be in the APA, and part of that are meets at specific dates/locations where a bunch of birds of the specific colors (first is Black Copper, next I believe is Wheaten) are all assessed for uniformity and type that matches the proposed standard.

My only thought is if its takes at least 5 breeders breeding for 5 years and there has to be a good enough majority or uniformity within the entire population then we should wait a bit more and be more patient with our standard till after the five years is up and you can see what the majority have and what is actually uniform by that time. We might be making a standard where all our Cl every single one of ours scores at the very best as average hens and roos in the 50s. once we all get to the 5 year mark it would suck if our CL are no where close to standard due to gene pool we've been given. its just my suggestions if your going to make a new standard for an American breed at least make one where all our birds as the majority can score in the 60-80s. Giving the very best breeders a chance for best at shows maybe scoring 80-90s.

Seeing that no one can look into the future and look at all our flocks as they sit at there desk working so hard. i just think it would be better suited to wait to see when all our efforts produce something uniform working towards what already exist in Britain, and then adjust the standard to make sure we gain acceptance. and like blackbird says if ours is very much aligned to British standard already then all is well and you guys who worked so hard on it can relax. we can use both to work towards but in reality come time for show acceptance into the APA i think what is uniform in all our birds should be what determines what our standard will be AT THAT TIME. It would be pretty lame to try to gain acceptance into the APA with our standard and all the breeders bring the judges birds that at best score in the 50s. I actually see maybe 40 percent of us scrambling getting roos and hens from other breeders who have achieved uniformity. As uniformity progresses people who are not even close are going to have to be able to drop there flock and start over again with what the majority has once acceptance time is near to get the majority in line and our birds accepted.

 

[dretd]

Quote:

Yes...the APA is more limiting. In their standards they don't see how 5, 6, or 7 point can all be equal. They require one to be the standard of perfection and the rest as not quite perfect. They don't accept orange or red eyes as equal. On is the best and the other has to be 2nd best. Likewise don't see white, opaque, or cream ear lobes has the same. One has to be defined as perfection and the others and no quite perfect.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the SOP though. In the history of the APA, no breed standard has ever "got everything right". Even the British standard for the Cream Legbars that was written by the most capable poultry breeders and geneticists of their time didn't get everything "right". A breeder in the UK who has seen about as many high quality Cream Legbars as anyone out there told me that the more she studies the British SOP the more she is is convinced that she has never seen a Cream Legbar that meets the standard and never will. We are never going to see a Cream Legbar that meet the standard here either. When looking to the Standard you have to pick and choose your battle so to speak. A Champion Cream Legbar may be a hen that scores 87 out of 100 points. A competitive hen may be one that scores 75 points out of 100 and an average hen one that scored 50 out of 100. The number are for a reference only I have never judged poultry, but do know that those that breed the birds that they feel are the best are generally more satisfied with the results in their flock than those that let the SOP police govern everything they do. I also know that breeding required good intuition, an emphasis on vigor and non tangible traits, and creativity. None of which you will find in a written SOP.

Thank you for your input and clarification!

As a person that is just now getting in to chicken breeding by the books, so to speak, I have yet a lot to learn on how this whole thing works.

I think another thing that I don't know yet is the relative ease and difficulty of breeding certain traits in or out. This becomes important becasue if I have roos that have several flaws each, I will need to decide which one's flaws are the easiest to eliminate and the relative importance of the individual flaws. Since I don't have experience with breeding chickens (intuition comes with gut feel from many years of experience), I don't have data to go back to that says the ear color was hard to breed out, or the crooked combs, or the lack of crest, tail at a 20 degree angle etc.

When I have two birds with different flaws I would not want to carry over one that has a flaw that is really hard to breed out but I don't know which flaws those are. I am guessing that DQs and serious defects are harder to breed out and that's why they are categorized that way. I was wondering if the experienced breeders out there (and I'm talking any breed, not just Cream Legbars) could comment on how hard or easy certain flaws are to breed out of a line once they get in there? Thats the sort of information that I am lacking and will make my job (as I start hatching and culling birds) a whole lot easier! Thanks!

 

[1muttsfan]

To be able to have everyone breeding towards the same goal, there has to be a standard first - otherwise different people will be breeding different types of birds, only some of which may end up as acceptable in the standards. If you just wait to see what people will be breeding, you may end up with something very different from what we are trying to do - which is breed Crested Legbars, not something else.

Edited for oops wrong breed named!

 

[blackbirds13]

we can use both to work towards but in reality come time for show acceptance into the APA i think what is uniform in all our birds should be what determines what our standard will be AT THAT TIME. It would be pretty lame to try to gain acceptance into the APA with our standard and all the breeders bring the judges birds that at best score in the 50s. I actually see maybe 40 percent of us scrambling getting roos and hens from other breeders who have achieved uniformity. As uniformity progresses people who are not even close are going to have to be able to drop there flock and start over again with what the majority has once acceptance time is near to get the majority in line and our birds accepted.

The Cream Legbar has a history and standard via the British. Whatever standard we propose has to take this into account as we cannot remake the bird and then call it a Cream Legbar. I am not sure how far one can deviate from a birds original phenotype and genetics and still call it the same bird. We established a standard (and there was both agreement and disagreement on some points) to try to start the move towards uniformity in the breed. I see it as a guide to reference so my flock has direction but I breed my birds the way I feel is best for me, others have different priorities. As was stated prior the goal is not to have the SOP fit what we have in our backyard but what the breed standard "should" be for that bird. I'm sure as time passes there will be tweaks to the proposed standard but I believe there are limits to how far we can deviate from the breeds 'norm'.
BCM's were accepted into the APA's Continental class in April 2011 with feathered shanks, reflecting the French Standard. There is still disagreement on whether the standards are truly reflective of American stock or achievable in whole.
The Cream Legbars have a way to go and lots of generations to follow through until we can even contemplate APA. Not everyone will have the same route or agree on the same areas of importance which is good as it means we will keep a more diverse flock here in the US. Unfortunately, yes, there will be birds that will not conform to the standards as we get closer to acceptance. Some folks have no desire to contend with all of this but for those that have these concerns, I think we have a good start so far given what we began with.
I am new to chickens and breeding and enjoy the challenge even though the Marans are soooooo difficult when it comes to creating a good breeding flock. The Legbars are fun and a good learning experience. I'm not sure on how difficult some faults are. The floppy comb was concerning but may not be a difficult one to fix if you cull hard but I'm only on my F2 generation so still lots to figure out and see.

 

[AlleysFarm]

Any more difficulties found in hatching CLB eggs? I set two with some Silver Phoenix. The Silver Phoenix hatched a day early, the CLB one was DIS the other was not moving I opened it to examine it and I saw breathing below the air cell so I wrapped the egg back up and will hope for the best. I did do the float test before exploring and both were deemed to be fully developed and viable but I saw no movement in either egg and they were three days past due.

I have 9 more in the incubator hatch date is in two weeks and I'm worried I won't have any hatch...

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Awe, sorry you had a bad hatch. The one that is 3 days past due probably won't hatch, or if it does it won't make it. My Cream Legbars usually hatch right on schedule, but lately I've been losing more than normal at about day 15-18. I'm guessing it's the humidity swings we've had lately? It's not temps, I've been hatching for several months in this Sportsman and the temps stay rock solid. I only candle once a week and it is quick in and out. My EEs and Ameraucanas are hatching fine, Black Copper Marans are having the same problems as the CLs but they tend to have a lower hatch rate anyway because of the thicker shells. So I'm guessing Cream Legbars may be more sensitive to humidity problems than other breeds. Here in Oklahoma humidity can be a real problem in the summer, I may end up having to go with completely dry hatches. We will see I suppose.

Hopefully your other batch will do better. Do a candling at day 10 or just before lockdown and let us know how they do at hatch!

 

[AlleysFarm]

Well egg #2 was a dud as well. looked like a lot of fluid in the egg was too squeamish to explore further.. looked like it was developed just lots of fluid inside the inner membrane.

I think part of the problem was the humidity and temps as everyone else hatched early including a duck egg that hatched two days early. Well today is day 10 and I candled, they all show growth and movement, only one was too dark to see through. The air cells today look like this on pencil marking. Any suggestions for making this hatch successful given that I have 11 days to correct any issues?

Air cell to me looks pretty good considering it's between day 7 and day 14 in air cell size.. fingers crossed...

 

[CibolaChooks]

The Cream Legbar has a history and standard via the British. Whatever standard we propose has to take this into account as we cannot remake the bird and then call it a Cream Legbar. I am not sure how far one can deviate from a birds original phenotype and genetics and still call it the same bird. We established a standard (and there was both agreement and disagreement on some points) to try to start the move towards uniformity in the breed. I see it as a guide to reference so my flock has direction but I breed my birds the way I feel is best for me, others have different priorities. As was stated prior the goal is not to have the SOP fit what we have in our backyard but what the breed standard "should" be for that bird. I'm sure as time passes there will be tweaks to the proposed standard but I believe there are limits to how far we can deviate from the breeds 'norm'.
BCM's were accepted into the APA's Continental class in April 2011 with feathered shanks, reflecting the French Standard. There is still disagreement on whether the standards are truly reflective of American stock or achievable in whole.
The Cream Legbars have a way to go and lots of generations to follow through until we can even contemplate APA. Not everyone will have the same route or agree on the same areas of importance which is good as it means we will keep a more diverse flock here in the US. Unfortunately, yes, there will be birds that will not conform to the standards as we get closer to acceptance. Some folks have no desire to contend with all of this but for those that have these concerns, I think we have a good start so far given what we began with.
I am new to chickens and breeding and enjoy the challenge even though the Marans are soooooo difficult when it comes to creating a good breeding flock. The Legbars are fun and a good learning experience. I'm not sure on how difficult some faults are. The floppy comb was concerning but may not be a difficult one to fix if you cull hard but I'm only on my F2 generation so still lots to figure out and see.

 

[nicalandia]

I can officially post on here! I had my first Legbar hatch ever today!!! I know I have 2 males and am pretty confident that I have 7 females. Here are some blurry pictures. Let me know what everyone thinks of them.






You have no idea how excited I am!!!

its interesting to see these "Dark" Females(the ones with the fait headspot) please track them to see the difference between them and the light females without the headspot, the males are clearly shown here