The Welsummer Thread!!!!

[pinkchick]

The White Welsummers~

Okay.....
I think it is great that someone wants to step outside of the box with these birds and try something new...and we all know that sports can happen in any breed and that many other varieties of chickens that some of us breed and have were created from "sports" ("sport" does not always refer to just a white bird that happens, i.e..., some lines of Black Copper Marans throw "sports" and these birds are a patterned bird and are considered the Wheaten color variety, however, these Wheaten "sports" thrown from the Black Coppers do not breed true when bred back, they are a recessive pop up of an accidental Wheaten cross Black Copper somewhere in the lineage and most likely someone didn't know how to tell the difference in the 2 different varieties and when both sets of genes mixed....well too many other genetic factors to get it to, there is Wheatens Marans variety that breeds true) that had been refined and bred for many years resulting a birds that breed true and then with alot of hard work and effort some of them were accepted and recognized, now if these birds had not come from a hatchery and these sports had happened in a flock of breeder Welsummers, then I would be gung-ho for someone breeding the sports and calling them White Welsummers as long as they still conform to type, disposition and retain egg color.
What is hard for me with this is that one can never be certain of a birds lineage coming from a big hatchery, IMO, mistakes have happened and do happen in big hatcheries, so how can one be certain that it is a sport from a pure Welsummer.....sports can be results of mishap or accidental unknown breedings at the hatchery or many generations before that, so who is to say that this sport didn't happen in hatcheries original Welsummer background..by this I mean, hatcheries get their breeder birds from somewhere, most often private breeders.....who is to say that something didn't happen then and it took several generations for the right 2 birds to be crossed that both had genetic factors that when combined would produce a sport? There are so many ways to look at this when a person thinks about it.
Many birds are a color or variety that was not original to the breed at first, i.e...Silver Laced Wyandottes being the first, then came the: Blue Laced Red, Gold Laced, Silver Penciled, Black, Blue, Splash, Barred, Buff, Columbian, Birchen, Black Breased Red and Lemon Blue Wyandottes, were created and refined using another breed of bird to introduce the pattern or color a person was after and then bred back and thus even more refined over the years resulting in the birds that we have today that are considered to breed true.

I would think that the best way to go about infusing a new color to Welsummers is to start from known pure Welsummers and bred out all unwanted traits and characteristics of said borrowed bird used to infuse the new color/pattern and retain, or regain in most cases, egg color. That is one of the most important and one of the most special traits or characteristics of the Welsummer, IMO. This would be a project that would take a person many years of single and double matings and lots of hard culling to acheive, I would think.


So, how does one say if this is right or wrong? Or, did any of that even make any sense? I guess...to a certain extent, I'm still on the fence.

 

[Happy Chooks]

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Me too!

 

[EweSheep]

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You are saying it right!

So far, everyone is saying NO to the White Welsummers and it would be around seven oclock CST, that White Welsummer page will be GONE bye bye in cyberspace. I wanted to give folks a chance to see it before it goes. Once it goes, there is NO way I can get it back. What I do have are the pictures of the White Welsummers and the information from the gentleman and leave it in my email for future refences if one wants to see it.

Its too bad I can not take that WCNA page and put it in "file" in my computer.

I talked it over to my dad which he does have experience in raising colored dogs such as collies, he said the ONLY thing that can classify a TRUE Welsummer is their DNA. AND if you suspect there are other breeds involved in it, take a blood sample of each breed and take it from there to see if they are any similarities. As far as I know, the breeders of those White Welsummers did say that they were DNA'ed and they are pure Welsummers. I have NO idea where they got their tests taken to find out if they are pure Welsummers. I figured if we DNA'ed our birds, we are going to get some mixed breeds about a hundred and some years ago popping up, when they first created Welsummers. I am sure we certainly CAN find those original birds of different breeds.

For those who hasn't seen the White Welsummers, better go in there and check it out before it goes bye bye in a couple of hours from now.

 

[Tailfeathers]

I posted the below on another site but am pasting it here in the event that there are some who may not belong to the other. It's germane to the above discussion...

Dictionary.com defines “sport” as: “an organism or part that shows an unusual or singular deviation from the normal or parent type; mutation”.

Since we really have no way of verifying if this is in fact a “singular deviation from the normal” or a “mutation”, I personally think it is too presumptuous to call this a Sport. Others have already eluded to the birds appearance showing some possible Leghorn. The egg itself is further evidence to me that this White Welsummer is not a Welsummer at all. I agree with Rodney, the fact that it came from a large commercial hatchery is enough to bring in untold questions that would rule out the probability of ever knowing what this bird truly is.

My guess is that Ideal bought the eggs from someone else and therefore unless one can trace the record back to the origins, this is a complete Unknown and in all likelihood it is a cross of some kind – or in other words a mutt – and not a Welsummer. The difference between a mutation, or true Sport, and a hybrid cross of some kind is like night and day. They are nowhere close to being the same and personally I think that we are actually much more likely to be dealing with a hybrid cross than a mutation.

Speaking only for myself, I recommend taking the “Sport” page completely off of the Club site. Until such time as one can accurately prove that a mutation within the Welsummer breed has resulted, I think it is much better to stick to the facts and exercise the KISS system. Keep It Simple Sir (or Sister! LOL). It’s just my opinion but I think the Club would be much better suited to have the site promoting only that which is factual, trustworthy, and germane to the goals for which the Club exists.

And just so folks know, I’m coming from a perspective of having seen a similar sort of thing more times that I can count from the Ameraucanas. Because of the commercial false advertising about that breed, there is much misinformation out there. It would not be worthwhile to spend the time or space to go into it all but trust me there is a whole lot of confusion about Ameraucanas. Additionally, if one looks at the official Club site they will see pictures of the 8 APA approved varieties on the site. Yet, I know that Lavender and a couple of other new varieties are being worked on. Those pictures and discussion are better left to the Forum and not part of the official site.

Laurie has a good point when she says, “judges … like solid white or black so they can look at the structure and other traits (eye and leg and beak color, etc.) without distractions”. I’ve actually had judges tell me that very thing.

However, I would say that we have to be careful about assuming a position like “The MOST important thing is, if solid white is NOT a color accepted or approved in the country where the breed originated and it is NOT, then there should not BE white Welsummers. Anywhere. Not if they are called WELSUMMERS. PERIOD.” Because the United States of America should not be limited to what another country has or doesn’t have. For example, suppose there are some in the Netherlands that decide to develop another variety – maybe white, black, or you-name-it? Does that mean the USA and the APA are obligated to have one too? Or suppose that the Netherlands just loses interest in Welsummers altogether and they become all but extinct. Does that mean the USA and the APA can’t try to develop new varieties?

I think it’s important to remember that we wouldn’t even have Welsummers if someone hadn’t decided to try and develop something else. Somewhere along the line of experimentation the Welsummer came about AND it became popular enough with others to actually become established as a breed. Also, in Europe there are Silver and Golden Duckwing varieties. What would have happened to those varieties if the same standard of “that’s not a Welsummer” were applied? They would never have been accepted.

Now, having said all that, there is a GREAT danger that so much experimentation is done that the original Welsummer gets lost in the translation. It is a natural desire and temptation for folks to want to create something new. Those of us who breed know it all too well. The unknown, surprise factor of what might result is quite intriguing. I know this from breeding my Ameraucana crosses to get Easter Eggers. It is exciting to see what genetics can do. However, here is my fear, I have seen so much interest in trying to come up with so many new varieties of Ameraucana that there is now so little interest in improving the 8 different existing approved varieties. Most know that I raise, breed, and show WBS Ameraucanas. They still need a LOT of work. Yet few are willing to do it. They are more interested in jumping on the next bandwagon with some new fancy eye-catching color.

I would hate to see that happen to the Partridge Welsummer. My vote is for continuing to do all we can do to my “my” Welsummer the best they can be!

Respectfully, just my two-cents.

God Bless,

 

[EweSheep]

Majority ruled to VOTE NO to the White Welsummers......none voted for the White Welsummers. 10 to 0. And more coming late too......I will tally those up too to get the exact numbers of members wanting to vote but was late. It has been very overwhelming to reject so THANKS TO ALL who voted and gave their opinions, comments, suggestions and advises and you were ALL so kind, not flaming the breeder for fraud but if he ever has to read it, he would understand our reasons of why we all have rejected the color. That would INCLUDE blues, blacks and cuckoo patterns that some are now creating. Yes I know for those who are breeding those colors would say," it's America and I can do what I want and still call them Welsummers". Well, it is going to be a very LONG road for them to be accepted.

I love Laurie's posts...right to the point and Royce have his piece being said as well. It really makes you think about the Welsummers and the hype and fads we will expect to see in the coming years and we can not let the Welsummer go into exile or become so rare. Like the Orps, the whites are harder to find than the Buffs and blues which are still popular and well liked.

IF we do have a "sport" Welsummer in our midst in our lifetime, would a DNA be required? That would be a start to find out if it is a REAL thing, a freak mute of some sort coming out of the 100 percent pure Welsummer stock. I know some would try to keep those white tipped birds and keep breeding them for more white but I am not sure if the white can go more whiter than 10 percent of the feathers being totally white. Any sensible breeder would cull them out of the flock anyway. If the stock came from a hatchery, well, I'm sorry, we can not accept those colors at any condition.

Sport Welsummers/White Welsummers section went to cyberspace in the sky.........bye bye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However I would wish those breeders good luck but from now on, it is buyer's beware and if anyone does ask about it, we can tell them we have VOTED NO to the White Welsummers to be accepted in the WCNA and not the BEST of interest in our members and breeders alike. It will not be accepted now and it will not be accepted later. (probably after we are all dead and gone, we don't have any control over that but lets HOPE that the breeders of the future will think likewise!)

 

[EweSheep]

HappyChooks!!!!!!

Thank you so much for the eggs! They all came intact, nobody is cracked either LOL!

Just goreous colors! I love the smooth colored one than the speckled but neverthanless, they ARE terra cotta in color. Most so orangey in color!

I did have a Welsummer hen that laid a reddish brown tint, and I got rid of her quickly. She was all Welsummer but the RED tint didn't have that orangey tint to it. More like someone took a red paint and a brown paint and mixed it together.

OK Nate, one of the girls are laying but trying to figure out WHICH one, its a speckled one! So its the first! I thought it would have been my CW hen starting to warm up her ink jets before she gets into the smooth mode. Now my Sarah orp and one Welsummer is laying now. It wont be LONG when the bunch will start laying but not sure if the roo would be fertile because of his poor comb. It got frostbitten again. Poor guy! His appetite is good doing his deeds and woo-ing the ladies with treats. He is one hunka boy!

 

[Louieandthecrew]

Lots to read! Wow, I'll just stay here

 

[Happy Chooks]

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The eggs didn't come from me. My girl is molting, so the only welsummer I have laying right now is my reject (wrong coloring) welsummer in my layer pen. She of course lays the darkest egg.

 

[Hens and Roos]

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The eggs didn't come from me. My girl is molting, so the only welsummer I have laying right now is my reject (wrong coloring) welsummer in my layer pen. She of course lays the darkest egg.

EweSheep did the ones I sent make it to you yet? Should have arrived either wed or yesterday, we had blown the eggs out(breakfast of course

 

[Louieandthecrew]

Hello everyone