Turkey Talk for 2014

[Sydney Acres]

Took the poults out for some playtime yesterday

That is so gorgeous, it could be a studio pose instead of a country snapshot.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: It looks like they had a day at the beach!!!!!

 

[WeatheredWings]

Than

That is so gorgeous, it could be a studio pose instead of a country snapshot.

Thanks! I was sitting in my yellow Adirondack chair while they were attacking dandelions & thought it would be a cute photo opp!

 

[desertmarcy]

I took a few photos of my 4 to 6 week old Penciled Palms:

 

[WeatheredWings]

I took a few photos of my 4 to 6 week old Penciled Palms:

Very Pretty! Do you have a pic of an adult? I'm not familiar with this breed.

 

[desertmarcy]

I love the Penciled Palms! They are the same genotype as Royal Palm, except addition of 2 penciling genes which give the feathers an unusual swirly pattern. I got mine from Kevin Porter last spring. Unfortunately, I only got 1 pair. Both of mine also have one red gene, hence they are a "tricolor". I am hatching out all my hen's eggs and raising them (at least that's what I say NOW

) because I want some of the black and white without the red gene. I had a tom like that from Porter several years ago, but a bobcat got him before I realized bobcats were a problem around here. Stupid me. He was gorgeous, and not even full grown. With my tricolor pair, only 25% will lack the red gene. 25% will have 2 red genes and will be red penciled. They are the closest to the buff color you see in chickens that I have seen in a turkey. The true Buff turkeys look like a light colored Bourbon Red. These Red Penciled look blond. But the penciling is not as sharp. I wasn't even for sure my hen was a tricolor until the poults hatched because she only has a hint of reddish. But I have some solid yellow poults, and those will be red penciled, which I couldn't get unless both parents carry the red gene. The Penciled Palms seem to vary a lot, so it will be fun to see how they develop.

Here are pics of my adult pair:

Here's the post I made about them a little while ago.

 

[WeatheredWings]

Abs

Here's the post I made about them a little while ago.

Absolutely gorgeous!

 

[chicken pickin]

Here's the post I made about them a little while ago.

They are stunning! How do they look after process?

 

[Sydney Acres]

I asked Ronott1 what he thought of the cain issue and he found this for us on prolapse vent:

I found this and article about it. xylocain is lidocain in the article. It really should be used by a vet an only when performing surgery. Why don't they try an anti inflamatory? They are much safer for chickens.


Quote:
There is still a great deal of work to be done in the pharmacokinetics of these various drugs specifically in our exotic avian species. However, we have come a long way in helping our avian patients deal with pain, thereby enhancing their recovery from illness and give them a more quality of life in the case of terminal disease processes.

The information that you've posted are the comments of one veterinarian (Dr. Larry Nemetz) about a lecture given by Dr. Michelle Hawkins. Dr. Hawkins is board certified in Avian Medicine, and is a faculty member at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. She had presented a lecture summarizing the options for pain control in birds. Dr. Larry Nemetz is a very accomplished private practitioner of avian medicine, but is not a board certified specialist, so the scope of his academic knowledge may not be as extensive as Dr. Hawkins (or it may be, but it's just not been documented -- nothing against Dr. Nemetz at all). If you go back and read the entire link that was posted (which is only a small portion of Dr Hawkins lecture, but it gives the context), you will find that Dr, Hawkins does talk about the use of multiple topical anesthetics, as well as injectable anesthetics that are only available in a clinical setting, and anti-inflammatories that are available through prescription only. But my point is that the information posted is only Dr. Nemetz's comments about the lecture, basically his lecture notes, a comment on his personal use of lidocaine vs other local anesthetics, and his summary of his view of avian anesthesia/analgesia in general. It is not the same as Dr. Hawkins lecture. I'm not saying that it's not valid information, but it is important to recognize the difference between a summary of clinical research vs. the opinions and personal experience of one private practitioner.

I did not see the year that the lecture was given, which is critical information in determining its current validity. Dr. Hawkins has been at UC Davis since 2003, so the information could be as much as 11 years old. Most of the current information about pharmacology in "exotic" animals, a category that all birds get lumped into even though chickens and turkeys are common farm animals, is summarized in a book called Exotic Animal Formulary by James W. Carpenter. It is kind of like a PDR for exotic veterinarians, only much better. It is basically a summary of all published, and some unpublished but well documented, drug use and dosages in invertebrates, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, sugar gliders, hedgehogs, rodents, rabbits, ferrets, mini pigs, primates, and wildlife. It is extremely well researched and well documented, and has some of the best-in-their-field specialists as contributors, including Dr. Hawkins. It is currently on it's fourth edition, with editions dating 1996, 2001, 2005, and 2013. I own all four editions, and am sometimes stunned at the difference between them. Information is being gained so rapidly that the 2005 edition, which is only 9 years old, is quite outdated, and the 1996 edition is almost laughable in its limitations compared to the 2013 version. When I read the portion of the lecture in the link, it compares to the information published in the 2005 formulary, so I suspect the lecture was given early in Dr. Hawkins career, and does not reflect current knowledge. The information that I provided in one of my previous posts came from the 2013 formulary.

Regarding the use of an antiinflammatory vs a topical anesthetic for a prolapsed oviduct, it is very important to recognize the differences between risk vs benefit, academic theory vs real life, and farm treatment vs. professional veterinary care. At no time have I ever recommended that an injured or sick bird not be taken to a veterinarian, as competent veterinary care gives the best chance for a successful outcome. If you read my original post you will see that one of the first things I say, after stating that treating a prolapse is something that cannot wait, is that an owner needs to decide if they want to take the bird to a veterinarian, and that if they want veterinary care they should take the bird in immediately, on an emergency basis. But the reality is that most chickens and turkeys are not kept as treasured pets that are provided veterinary care, or that veterinary care is beyond the budget of many people, or is not available locally or at the time it is needed. So for a number of reasons, bird owners are often in a situation were veterinary care is not an option, and something must (should) be done to relieve a bird's suffering at home. So yes, butorphonal and NSAIDS and balanced anesthesia and IV antibiotics and IV fluids and professional monitoring are all desirable things, but they simply aren't available without veterinary care, which most birds won't get. Period. So now what do you do? What are the practical, available, and time-tested options for relieving the hen's suffering and giving her a reasonable chance to recover? Not a guarantee of recovery, not an option with zero risks (because one doesn't exist, not even through a vet), but a reasonable chance to recover where the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.

Yes, local anesthetics (the cains) do have risks. But the risks are associated with higher dosages, which would be almost impossible to achieve with topical usage, especially a one time topical usage as was recommended. And while it has not been widely discussed, there are also significant risks associated with anti-inflammatories, again mostly due to dosage and duration of use. Aspirin is an anti-inflammatory, and is a major cause of death in people every year. Not because it is overly dangerous to most people if used properly, but because it is so widely used, and often used improperly.

But the biggest issue in topical anesthesia vs antiinflammatory use for prolapsed oviduct isn't risk, but benefit. An anti-inflammatory is given by mouth (or by injection in some cases, but usually only in a clinical setting), then has to go through the crop and into the digestive system for absorption. In a bird that is severely ill or painful, the crop isn't always moving along so well, so it could be hours, or never, before effective blood levels are reached. And even when (if) you get effective blood levels, what have you gained? The pain of having her insides pulled out isn't gone -- at best it would only be dulled a bit, because the oviduct is still prolapsed. And that pain is going to come back with a vengeance when the tissue is handled to return the prolapsed oviduct to its proper position inside the body. That's important for two reasons. First, hopefully it is the goal of every owner to not cause unnecessary pain to the animals they care for. But regardless of your level of empathy, pain control determines your success in this situation. A painful bird is going to strain quite strongly as the oviduct is replaced inside and for some time afterwards, and straining often causes the prolapse to recur. Topical (local) anesthesia blocks almost all feeling (the pain nerves are numbed, but a little pressure can still be felt sometimes), so the likelihood of straining and re-prolapsing is significantly reduced. That's a huge benefit, and certainly worth the miniscule risk associated with the proper use of topical anesthesia.

I do, however, agree that anti-inflammatories are of great benefit, but during the recovery phase of a prolapsed oviduct. They are completely inadequate to control the pain of organ displacement and tissue manipulation, but can provide a tremendous benefit in reducing the inflammation to the injured oviduct, which will decrease the non-acute pain and speed healing. Meloxicam has been shown to be both the safest and most effective in birds (love it when those two features come together in the same product!), and is available by prescription only. The liquid form is labelled for dogs, quite expensive, and my birds unanimously hate the taste. Luckily the dose in birds is much higher than dogs on a mg/kg basis, so most chickens and turkeys are large enough to take either 1/4 to 1/2 (or more in the really large turkeys) of the 7.5 mg pills made for humans, which are available as generics and are dirt-cheap. But they are only available by prescription from your vet.

 

[desertmarcy]

They are stunning! How do they look after process?

Like the Royal Palm, they are a smaller turkey than the other heritage varieties, but still quite edible.