What do you guys think of these colts? Pics on page 3,6,7,8 & 12

[patandchickens]

In training the idea is to stop *before* they're sore or brainfried

Mind, I know there is a school of thought that says it is okay to push a horse past his limits, so as to vividly see what they are, *when trying it out to decide if you'll buy it*. I don't happen to agree with that school of thought (as I have seen some really, really bad things done in its name...) but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine that perhaps you do subscribe to it.

Even if that is the case, fifteen or twenty minutes of w/t in a roundpen, and being asked to bend and flex, under a strange rider who is doing things in a way different than he's accustomed to, especially when he may perhaps not understand or enjoy the whole "being ridden" thing very well in the first place.... that is a WHOLE BIG LOT to be demanding of a just-started youngster.

You can say what you want about allllll your experience but this sounds like not a good way to start out with any horse, especially not this one. Other horses will eventually come along. I know you're young, but still, what's a few months or six months, if it is the difference between getting the RIGHT horse versus one that will not fit well with you.

JMHO,

Pat

 

[danischi24]

He wasn't sacked out, just lunged with saddle & bridle a few times. I can fix the sourness, it will just take some firmness & consistency. There are no vets around here that are capable with horses, nevermind lameness issues. Maybe in the center of the country but I don't know any there either. There's no ways that they rodeo'd him, no one here is capable of sitting a good buck & it's not their way anyway. I think he is just stiff & tight from standing in a stable for 6 months. I want the pinto but the problem with him is the age lying & that bump on his leg.

 

[danischi24]

He did not act sore until I hosed him down-I was not riding a sore horse beyond his boundaries. If everyone needs a break down of how our session went to clear my name, so be it. I have started many youngsters. In fact, it used to be my job. The horse has been walked, trotted & cantered under saddle before. I walked him inhand for 5 minutes around the round pen to accustom him to it & me. Then I mounted slowly & put him around at the walk with a lot of walk-halt transitions. He was cutting inside the ring badly so I flexed him & kept bringing him to the outside of the ring. Changed reins & repeat. Once he did that nicely, I moved up to a trot & again, flexed & bent him to keep him where he should be. Changed reins & repeat. Then I climbed off, walked him for 5 minutes & hosed him down. The 20 minutes includes the inhand walk but not the cool down walk. Good enough for y'all or am I a cruel horse abuser?

 

[Hound]

Something is not right whether it be the horse or the rider. When you say very sore, are we talking about buckling at the knees when you touch his back? Either the horse has something wrong or the methods used were OTT. No 2-3yr old horse should be having those issues with the exercise you described.

Maybe it's just me, but i'm seeing a lot of 'this person is incapable', 'the training needs correcting', 'they didn't do 'x' right' etc. Perhaps not everybody is wrong/ignorant.

Equally if you feel you have to ride a young horse (or HAVE to ride any horse) with a whip then the horse or rider needs more training not more force. Forcing a horse to do anything will never pay off in the long run, eventually 1000lbs plus will be pushing back against you and that's when things go downhill fast.

 

[WIChookchick]

YOu can all stop your griping about whips...
REALLY....
A whip when used correctly is an extension of your leg, it is an AID!!!
Can any of you say you have never lunged a horse and not used a lunge whip when asking the horse to go from a walk to trot or trot to canter???
Have any of you ever jumped or ever done barrel racing??? people use "bats" (a whip with a large flappy end) in jumping and barrel racer whip the snot out of their horses
and bang into their sides as if it were dead, just to get that extra 10th of a second off their time.

IF she used to start and train horses, she knows the proper use of a whip, a light tap.. is no different than clinton anderson using a rope or denis reis tapping a horse on the rump with the rope
when he kind of seizes up and won't go forward... these trainers using a light thick bit of cotton to get a young horse to move forward .
In this video with Denis Reis ( a well known trainer/natural horse person)... is starting a young horse..
He is on it and if you watch at .53-.54 seconds.. he taps the young horse WITH his big lariat (the end of it here)... to keep the horse moving forward..

AND staying off the horse's mouth.

There is a student of his, in a competition on a just started horse.. she is slapping her hand against her own thigh at 5:40.. MAKING a loud sound , to encourage forward movement from the horse.
And at 6:01 she is using one of his "training/carrot" sticks to encourage the horse to go forward.. tapping on the horse's but to get forward movement...
WHat is the difference between a carrot stick and a properly used crop or lunge whip.. NOTHING!!!!!

Get off your soap boxes, we are looking at horses being offered for sale. There is nothing this young lady has done to harm this horse.
IF a started horse can't handle 15-20 minutes of work... there is something wrong with THE HORSE.
The fact the horse is SORE... makes me think there is something wrong with him...
LET us as friends here on BYC, do things to help her find a good horse.. NOT Judge her...

Unless you all want to post some stuff about yourselves and your methods of training... so we can rip you apart...

I will start with one thing I KNOW I DID WRONG>>>!!!!
And I paid the price with 2 surgeries, a broken shoulder (Replaced by a titanium one) and an infection in my shoulder....
I worked with a 5 yr old QH mare that I KNEW.. I KNEW had some sort of back and withers issue.. like BROKEN WITHERS.
I talked to the owner about it, but she wouldn't take the horse to the vet or have a vet x-ray her back.. or have a chiropractor out to see if
there was a problem there...
The horse had been green broke (supposedly), but the seller insisted they (the buyers) lead him around on her.. he wouldn't ride her out in the arena by herself...
They bought her any way...
I re-started her from the ground up.. she could trot and canter all day on the ground, but once up on her back I had to fight her to get her to get her to walk, then even worse to even trot...
She would wring her tail, she would throw her head around...
I pushed her, trying to get her to at least canter a little with a rider.. It was NOT the saddle, it was properly fitted, it was not the girth, nor the bit...
She bucked me off, after trying several times to tell me.... and I broke my shoulder.
She has been sold off to some poor schmuck, I don't know who... maybe, they will read the signs better than I.


Let us help Danshi.. not criticize her...

 

[Hound]

Or let's read a post carefully before flying off the handle

As for Dennis Reis, well anyone who presents him as an example of good horsemanship has lost me from the get-go.

 

[WIChookchick]

I used him as an example since he is a NH trainer.. is a Parrelli offshoot, and he uses a rope (which some others do as well)... as a leg aid and a carrot type stick...
(and he was the first I thought of when looking at You Tube to find an example of using something when starting or working with a horse that is NOT a whip but is used as a leg aid)
(Ryan Gingrich.. (odd fellow too)... uses a dressage whip in his NH methodology)
Using a fancy named stick, as a type of lunge whip... and using it as an extension of your leg.. or hand.. (if using it to desensitize, give to pressure... stroke the horse)..
IS using a whip as an AID.. not as a whip.. as the folks here seem to like to step up on a soap box about....

 

[danischi24]

I have more than 20 years experience with horses, much of which is competing nationally & internationally & representing my state. I am not going to defend my methods anymore. They are sound & have been proven by great results & consistently sound horses. A whip is an aid as mentioned above & is a great asset when used correctly. I don't seem to remember mentioning beating the crud out of the horse at any stage.
Anyway, we are going to leave my riding & training skills out of this & go back to the topic...What do you guys think of these colts? I'm asking only because I have few horsey friends in this country & I thought I would post it up to my BYC friends.

P.S. He didn't buckle at the knees when I pressed his back. He tucked in a bit when I hosed him off which made me suspicious & then, when I ran my hand down his spine, he bent his back to avoid the pressure.

 

[babyblue]

assuming that you aren't over weight, which I don't believe you are, assuming that the horse is broke, he may not be very well. weirdness with the back can be from problems with his feet and legs. you said the feet look bad, wrong angles and such and really need a farrier out. well if hes trying to compensate with his whole body to not put funny pressures on his feet then his back could certainly end up sore.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
So with your 20 years experience as an internationally competitor and trainer and all that, and having also (according to https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=285746&p=1 ) having trained/ridden "Camels, elephants, zebra, horses, donkeys, mules, reindeer, cows off the top of my head. ETA. Ostriches, Emus, Indian water buffalo"....

...you must surely know that what you describe here is not a very good test for back soreness, especially not in a young horse who is already grumpy with you. Insofar as it means anything, it generally means muscle tension and skittishness.

I am also suspicious that there are ever any riding/training problems on a baby that require the use of a whip even just used as a dressage-whip "aid" type thing (and I have started plenty of youngters over the years). Certainly some horses don't like the feel of your leg moving around up there -- solution being, get him used to it, and keep your legs still. And certainly a LOT of babies do not understand to move away from the leg (either forward or sideways or bendy-wise), or sometimes even if they understand it they can't always DO it, and may lean into your leg or even tense up and buck when it's applied -- solution being, again, education that is absolutely no easier with a whip than without. So I dunno about this. Maybe they have special horses in Israel that do not operate like any North American horses. I kind of doubt it though. And if the horse is balking and bucking you off from just using your leg aids, there is IME a pretty reasonable chance that an actual tap or whap with a crop would result in additional frequent-flier mileage so to speak.

(e.t.a. - Especially since you have previously said (on the zebra thread):

My worst horses take me a day from scratch so I'm thinking that the zebra will take a few weeks to months.

and also

I'm a retired horse trainer

)

I give up. Too little of this thread makes sense to me. Plus I don't honestly know why you're asking for opinions except to give you something to argue about.

To me this thread is STRONGLY reminiscent of the above-linked zebra thread, which you began by saying:

I now live in Israel & a friend says that there are some Bedouins down south with a few zebras. I want one for riding as I get bored with the usual thing. I've trained horses most of my life & usually work with stallions or wild horses. I've broke in wild donkeys too. The zebra will probably be a 2 or 3 year old stallion & straight out the wild. Any tips from people who have zebras? I know it would be easier to get a weanling & raise him up but I want something that will be ridable soon & I know what I'm doing with equines. Any training tips?

Enjoy yourself,

Pat​