Breeding coturnix quail color questions

[Thornflower_gal]

I am new to BYC and this is the third time I've posted this, (hopefully in the right spot now), but I have some questions about quail color varieties. I am not THAT new to quail and I do have some basic quail color knowledge, (pharaoh being dominant, italian incomplete, things like that), but I am still confused as to how different breedings might turn out. I got out of quail around a year ago or so because of a snake problem and a rapidly approaching winter. Now I am looking to get back into it for meat, colors, and eggs. I have put my (literal) blood, sweat, and tears into an amazing, SNAKE-PROOF, 14-hole wood and wire cage for them. Each hole is 2 foot by 2 foot, except for 4 that are half as wide for chicks. On Sunday I will be going to get my quail, I have already reserved them. I will be getting a roo and 2 hens of five different colors: rosetta/tibetan, A&M, pharaoh, italian, and tuxedo. All the roos will be separated with 2 hens each (for now). How do you think I should group them to get the best new colors from their chicks? Does anyone know how people are getting snowy italians and silvers? Or golden tuxedos? Any new knowledge would be wonderful. I have seen the quail calculator and I am still confused! I will also keep records of my crosses for future reference.

 

[CoturnixComplex]

I am new to BYC and this is the third time I've posted this, (hopefully in the right spot now), but I have some questions about quail color varieties. I am not THAT new to quail and I do have some basic quail color knowledge, (pharaoh being dominant, italian incomplete, things like that), but I am still confused as to how different breedings might turn out. I got out of quail around a year ago or so because of a snake problem and a rapidly approaching winter. Now I am looking to get back into it for meat, colors, and eggs. I have put my (literal) blood, sweat, and tears into an amazing, SNAKE-PROOF, 14-hole wood and wire cage for them. Each hole is 2 foot by 2 foot, except for 4 that are half as wide for chicks. On Sunday I will be going to get my quail, I have already reserved them. I will be getting a roo and 2 hens of five different colors: rosetta/tibetan, A&M, pharaoh, italian, and tuxedo. All the roos will be separated with 2 hens each (for now). How do you think I should group them to get the best new colors from their chicks? Does anyone know how people are getting snowy italians and silvers? Or golden tuxedos? Any new knowledge would be wonderful. I have seen the quail calculator and I am still confused! I will also keep records of my crosses for future reference.

With those colors you will end up with red range, tibetan, wild type, italian, and potentially tuxedo varieties of all of those (by crossing the A&M with the other types).

To get silvers, pearls, or snowies (pearl+silver), you have to buy them, they are separate color genes.

 

[sylviethecochin]

So the White gene appears to function the same way as recessive white does in chickens. It's recessive (duh) and no matter the pattern/colour on which it's put, it will always result in a pure white bird.

The Pi gene (English White) is similar to the white gene in Muscovies. If you have two copies of the recessive, the bird is solid-coloured. If you have two copies of the dominant, the bird is white. If you have Pi/pi, then the bird is tuxedo.

Gold (Yw) is dominant to brown (yw). Brown is Pharaoh, two gold is Manchurian (and results in a 25% mortailty rate because the genes are homozygous lethal) and gold/brown is Italian.

EDT: This is a lie. Manchurian is a different mutation of gold. Two gold is still gold (dead gold), no matter what the calculator says. Thanks, Coturnixcomplex! (Since it's hard to find information on Coturnix genetics, I certainly don't want to muddy the puddle with incorrect information.)

The E gene has three alleles, most of which will result in different colours. E/E is Tibetian, E/e is Rosetta (slightly lighter and redder) e/e is pharaoh, e^rh/e^rh is Redhead (sort of a peachy colour with a redhead, as the name implies) and it won't show unless two copies are present.

Br is normal colour, sexlinked. br is a recessive dilution gene. (Like gold and silver in chickens, but flipped.) It dilutes brown to fawn and gold to cream.

So Rosetta is Wh/Wh, yw/yw, E/e, Br/Br (or Br/+, in females) and pi/pi.
Pharaoh is Wh/Wh, yw/yw, e+/e+, Br/Br, pi/pi
Italian is Wh/Wh, Yw/yw, e+/e+, Br/Br, and pi/pi
Tuxedo is (I'm assuming broken Pharaoh) so Wh/Wh, yw/yw, e+/e+, and Pi/pi

I think you can use the calculator from there.

I see CoturnixComplex has already answered the question, but I'm posting this anyway.

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Oh, and some mutations of the golden gene are lethal homozygous, so I'd split up your italians.

You can try A&M x italian for tuxedos, but you might have to introduce an extended red gene to help "fix" it. Luckily, you have those, in the form of your tibetans, which are E/E homozygous. So if you can try and blend those three colors over two generations you might get real nice tuxes.

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Gold (Yw) is dominant to brown (yw). Brown is Pharaoh, two gold is Manchurian (and results in a 25% mortailty rate because the genes are homozygous lethal) and gold/brown is Italian.

Ah, one nitpicky thing here. There are actually 4+ different mutations of golden at the same allele, so "manchurian", "italian", "beige", may all be different genes (some dominant lethal, some not, so that's where that confusion kicks in). You won't get manchurians from breeding two italians together, only italians, wild types, and lethal chicks.

(It's also all totally a spectrum of hundreds of genes actually controlling the black patterning and underlying body color, so there'll be oddballs all over no matter what).

 

[sylviethecochin]

Ah, one nitpicky thing here. There are actually 4+ different mutations of golden at the same allele, so "manchurian", "italian", "beige", may all be different genes (some dominant lethal, some not, so that's where that confusion kicks in). You won't get manchurians from breeding two italians together, only italians, wild types, and lethal chicks.

(It's also all totally a spectrum of hundreds of genes actually controlling the black patterning and underlying body color, so there'll be oddballs all over no matter what).

Okie-dokie. Honestly, I only got into coturnix genetics upon seeing this post (figured I'd take the opportunity to educate myself--my normal area is muscovy and chicken, and even there, I am but an amateur) so any criticism is welcome.

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Okie-dokie. Honestly, I only got into coturnix genetics upon seeing this post (figured I'd take the opportunity to educate myself--my normal area is muscovy and chicken, and even there, I am but an amateur) so any criticism is welcome.

You got most of it quite perfectly!

For every gene studied in quail there are a dozen that haven't been, and conflicting information *everywhere*. And the gold complex is one of particular confusion

Here's a bunch of reading material for both of you if you're interested! I found going straight to the studies a lot more illuminating than trying to guess colors off of the mostly-incomplete guides.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/ccs-big-list-of-coturnix-quail-studies.1295000/

 

[sylviethecochin]

You got most of it quite perfectly!

For every gene studied in quail there are a dozen that haven't been, and conflicting information *everywhere*. And the gold complex is one of particular confusion

Here's a bunch of reading material for both of you if you're interested! I found going straight to the studies a lot more illuminating than trying to guess colors off of the mostly-incomplete guides.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/ccs-big-list-of-coturnix-quail-studies.1295000/

Thanks!

 

[Thornflower_gal]

Thank all of you for replying! I will definitely try to get some cool colors and I'll post what crosses I did

 

[CoturnixComplex]

Thanks!

Also, chicken genes still confuse the heck out of me so now I know who to run to.

The quail color calculator I found to be about 75% correct, 25% incorrect (when compared to what research studies have to say about the genetic mechanisms), and visually confusing, so I haven't been able to use it much as a resource personally.

BUT I also have a mind for punnet squares, so it's not a big hindrance. If anyone is going to use it I would say use it only for one gene at a time and just do some follow-up research to see if what you find is consistent. It's definitely sometimes right! That's just somehow even less helpful than always being wrong .

I had it in my mind to do an updated version a while back, and quickly realized it would be impossible, so kudos to the original creator for getting that far!