Cap and Trade Bill?? What the heck is it?

[cmjust0]

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And those that move will be under way less regulation then they have here so pollution will increase big time over what it would have been if cap and trade never existed.

The more stranglehold put on us is the more business that China gets, and much more pollution. It was never about pollution, but always power, and control.

We allow them to strangle us by refusing to join the rest of the civilized world in an effort to pressure ALL economies to level the playing field with regard to environmental impact..

How are we supposed to look at China or India and say "Hey, guys, you really shouldn't be polluting like that" when we refuse to do anything about it ourselves???

We can't.. But if we did decide to do something about it -- something like Cap & Trade -- then perhaps we could speak with some credibility in helping to pressure China and India into curbing their environmental impact..

If they do, the cost of doing business in China and India is brought more in line with doing business in the US, which could actually go a long way toward getting a tourniquet on the hemorrhage of jobs we're losing to overseas competitors every single day.

As I said before, the ONLY other way to compete is to totally and completely deregulate everything and let corporate America decide what to do with their trash..

Do you guys really want that? Seriously?

What it all boils down to is this: Do we agree to hold ourselves to a higher standard and then pressure China and India and other heavily-polluting, developing economies to follow suit, or do we simply give up and drop ourselves down to to their level and submit to wallowing in the resulting surge of industrial filth and waste?

 

[cmjust0]

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A straw-man argument is where I assign you a position you never took, then ask you to defend it.

I didn't do that.

It's simply my opinion that there are two options here, which I laid out..

If you believe there are other options, I'd be more than willing to listen if you're willing to lay them out.

 

[GrayDragon]

I just can't help but wonder...

Why is there such an outcry every time there is talk of preventing corporations from doing something that they really shouldn't be doing in the first place?

Why is there such an outcry every time there is talk of making corporations do something they should have been doing all along?

I've always been curious about this phenomenon.

 

[1acrefarm]

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A straw-man argument is where I assign you a position you never took, then ask you to defend it.

I didn't do that.

It's simply my opinion that there are two options here, which I laid out..

If you believe there are other options, I'd be more than willing to listen if you're willing to lay them out.

What is wrong with the current system where factories homes and offices upgrade as they replace their equipment because it will lower their energy costs? What is wrong with the fact that all the new equipment is much more efficient than the old so we are moving in the right direction anyway? Why should we replace what is not broke with new thereby wasting energy producing it when not yet necessary?

 

[GrayDragon]

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Because a lot of companies simply aren't.

 

[cmjust0]

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But you just contradicted yourself...you say that we can't force China to do anything, then turn around and demonstrate how we can force China to do something..

Here's the thing... If the US engaged in the race to the top with the rest of the civilized world, our government could easily pressure China and India into improving their environmental practices with tariffs, sanctions, etc.. Afterall, we're their #1 customer, and at this point, what we demand of them is critically important.

The clock is ticking on our leverage, though! Once they have their domestic economy up and running full speed, they won't need us to buy their crap anymore and we'll have ZERO leverage..

And when that day comes, they're gonna stop lending us money regardless of whether or not we managed to pressure them into playing fair and adopting stricter environmental standards, labor standards, etc...

You can bank on that.

 

[cmjust0]

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This entire thread started because someone saw a commercial on TV and got worried.

There's your answer.

 

[horsejody]

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A straw-man argument is where I assign you a position you never took, then ask you to defend it.

I didn't do that.

It's simply my opinion that there are two options here, which I laid out..

If you believe there are other options, I'd be more than willing to listen if you're willing to lay them out.

Wikipedia:
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To ‘set up a straw man’ or ‘set up a straw-man argument’ is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted. ... It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy, scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument." / "One can set up a straw man in the following ways: 1) Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. 2) Quote an opponent's words out of context — i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions. 3) Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated. 4) Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. 5) Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked."

I think that the post could be considered a strawman argument.

 

[cmjust0]

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Doe the current system seem to be working, or are there jobs and industries streaming out of the US on a daily basis?

Our piddling around and fence-riding with regard to environmental impact IS the problem... We pollute just enough to lose all credibility in the arena and preclude ourselves from being able to exert any pressure whatsoever on wholesale polluters like China and India, yet we disallow ourselves from being able to pollute enough to be able to compete with them..

We gotta make a stand: Either we deregulate everything and let industry crank out as much of whatever as they want to so we can compete again, or we join the rest of the civilized world in actually doing something about our pollution and join the fight to make China and India clean up their act so we can compete again.

 

[cmjust0]

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I'm very familiar with what a strawman argument is, and I don't believe I presented a strawman argument.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, though, as I personally believe everyone has every right to be wrong.