Need Some Help With Fermented Feed Issues

[Incukahlan]

Alright, I am just a couple weeks into fermenting my feed and getting everyone on a schedule. But I'd like to talk to someone who has experience with it, as I feel I'm doing something wrong. I'm guessing it's my ratio of what I mix in, but I'm not 100% sure. I have laying hens, a turkey, pullets(10wks), and young ducks(10wks). The adults are all doing find on the fermented feed, including the turkey, but the pullets and young ducks are losing weight. Here is what I am doing:

So, typically with dry feed all of my flock was getting 26 dry cups daily. So I started fermenting my feed and doing 13 cups dry in a 5 gallon bucket( I have a rotation of 3 buckets going). It is a mixture from a big barrel containing 2 parts cracked corn, 1 part Scratch Grains, 2 parts Chicken feed. It was starter, now we've moved onto lay just a few days ago, because they were out of grower and said lay would be fine. I'm still not sure about that, but that isn't my issue for the moment. With each 5 gallon bucket 11 cups are from the mixed barrel, and then 2 cups of wild bird seed is also mixed in. Then we fill the bucket with water covering the feed by about 2 or 3 inches. In our heat here in Phoenix the fermentation process is happening very quickly. We feed on day 3 but I think it's ready on day 2. It gets covered in a white yeast the next morning and stops bubbling during day 2.

We feed on day 3 and everyone gets their measured amount. We were doing 1/4 cup per chick/pullet, 1/2 cup per hen, and 2 cups for the turkey, but because the pullets are really starting to grow now we are bumping them up to 1/2 cup today. I'm wondering if I should have switched them to a 1/2 cup sooner and that's what is causing the issue, or do I have to many fillers in my barrel mix? Trying to keep things as cheap as possible so I was hoping this would work. Again, my adults are good, but the pullets and ducklings are underweight when they were not before we started fermenting. But they are growing birds, so in my head they many not be doing well with these portions. I'd like some serious input.

We used to free feed in the past, but cannot afford to do that anymore unfortunately. The cost of everything here is outrageous now. So I'm trying to make this work in the best way that I can. Another concern is that I always hear about fermenting, and how it doubles the feed. The feed does not expand in the bucket by hardly anything. Its a soup when we feed each day. Not a stew, a full blown soup. Is it because I'm using the scratch and cracked corn? How do I make this work and not have to sell one of my children to do so?! I am also supplementing Duckweed a couple times a week, but I think I need to do that more often. That's everything I can think of, but my brain is a bit frazzled at the moment, so please feel free to ask for whatever info you need. I would really love to get some expert input. I want to do the best I can for everyone and I feel that right now it's not going as good as it should and I'd like to fix that. So any help is truly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[EddieSalita]

I think you're over thinking and become a bit overwhelmed. I'm not an expert. I've only recently started fermenting feed. But I've run into some of the same issues.

I never liked the 'soup'..... seemed like wasted nutrient if they weren't going to drink it all. So I reduced the amount of liquid so that didn't happen. Now it's more of a wet porridge rather than a soup. There is no reason a short term ferment needs to be religiously immersed. For grains I now use a 1:1 by volume ratio. For pellets or crumble I use 1.5:1 water to feed ratio. It still ferments and I don't end up with a soup.

In a post here someone I was provided this link: https://tikktok.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/fermented-feed-faq/ which seem the best simple mode guide I have found. Taking a lot hassle and worry out of it. Nor do they make it soupy.

Personally I think 'doubles the feed' is internet click bait bullshit. At worst it's increasing the quality or nutritional value of existing feed. At best they might eat a bit less. The studies I've read certainly go nowhere near claiming it halves the amount of food consumed. Never believe the internet.

If the duration of ferment isn't sitting well with you. Change it. In that kind of climate fermentation will be rapid. Especially if you are seeding each batch. Drop the time back to 24 hrs. It's OK to break rules to get a feel for things. Some fermentation is better than none. What you get in 24hrs might be equivalent to a more median climates 72 hrs. Less absolutely won't hurt.

As for the under weight. I would be guessing. But if you are assuming you're doubling the nutritional value that's your answer. In the few studies I've read you may increase protien content by a minimum of 10%. Maybe more depending on the nature of the feed and ferment. But never by 100%. So feed the equivalent in dry weight that they would normally eat. If they don't eat it all you can drop the amounts back. Then you have a basis to calculate savings on. Without some form of system/methodology you can't know of you are getting actual savings. If you can't specify the actual amount of savings, you can't know if it's actually a saving at all.

Hope this helps.

 

[Geena]

If you were feeding 26 cups of dry feed and now you are feeding 13 cups of the fermented feed then they are only getting half or less of the nutrition per day that they were getting previously.

Fermenting may double the volume of the feed because it swells up as it absorbs the water, but it doesn't really double the feed itself. It actually lessens the nutritional value per cup because now it's only half feed and half water. There MAY be some additional benefits once it's fermented, but that's debatable and I sure wouldn't count on it.

The addition of 2 parts corn and 1 part typical scratch to 2 parts layer feed (already the bare minimum nutritionally) is taking your protein level down to around 10% and that's nowhere near enough for growing birds. Chicks need at least 18% and ducklings at least 22% protein. Your adult birds will start to show the effects of that low protein before long too.

 

[EddieSalita]

If you were feeding 26 cups of dry feed and now you are feeding 13 cups of the fermented feed then they are only getting half or less of the nutrition per day that they were getting previously.

Fermenting may double the volume of the feed because it swells up as it absorbs the water, but it doesn't really double the feed itself. It actually lessens the nutritional value per cup because now it's only half feed and half water. There MAY be some additional benefits once it's fermented, but that's debatable and I sure wouldn't count on it.

The addition of 2 parts corn and 1 part typical scratch to 2 parts layer feed (already the bare minimum nutritionally) is taking your protein level down to around 10% and that's nowhere near enough for growing birds. Chicks need at least 18% and ducklings at least 22% protein. Your adult birds will start to show the effects of that low protein before long too.

Good point.... i didn't take enough notice of the ratios. Feeding 60% corn and scratch is seriously protien deficient for growing birds and layers.

 

[rosemarythyme]

The only real savings from fermenting is reduced waste. If you fed 26 cups dry, it's still 26 cups PLUS water like Geena explained. You're cutting out a lot of feed and then further diluting the nutrients with filler like corn and scratch and bird seed, so yes some of the birds are probably not getting enough nutrients for optimal growth.

There's also no reason to wait 3 days to feed. I start at 24 hr mark, especially in hotter weather where you start running the risk of the ferment going off. I've only had mold issues in hotter weather.

Reality is if you cannot afford to feed the birds, might want to reduce the headcount in your flock (or sell your kids!) Fermenting isn't going to magically give you a big cost savings from the feed bill and the more you dilute the nutrition, the more you may find the birds needing to eat more in order to get the protein and vitamins they're lacking.

You also shouldn't be on layer with birds that are only 10 weeks old. Whoever gave you that information is incorrect.

 

[Perris]

fermenting is beneficial when applied to whole grains; it's of little if any value applied to commercial starter/grower/layer mash/pellets: see the study linked by Jenjens here https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-me-research-study-on-fermented-feed.1428955/

I ferment and have been for years, and as it happens posted an article on home made feed for the whole flock (from chicks to 6 year olds) this morning, which you may find useful
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...eat-tears-a-calculator-or-deep-pockets.78655/
It has a lot of relevant references too, if you want to dig deeper.

 

[Incukahlan]

fermenting is beneficial when applied to whole grains; it's of little if any value applied to commercial starter/grower/layer mash/pellets: see the study linked by Jenjens here https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-me-research-study-on-fermented-feed.1428955/

I ferment and have been for years, and as it happens posted an article on home made feed for the whole flock (from chicks to 6 year olds) this morning, which you may find useful
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...eat-tears-a-calculator-or-deep-pockets.78655/
It has a lot of relevant references too, if you want to dig deeper.

Thank you so much, I will certainly check this information out. I appreciate the links.

 

[Incukahlan]

Alright, thanks everyone for the input, I really appreciate it. It seems as though all the recipes I was looking at online just aren't realistic when put to use. They had said to prepare half the amount that I typically feed because it will double, and said it was fine to use crumble/lay pellets. So obviously that's just not going to work. I already had a feeling that I couldn't get away with using that ratio of fillers, but I was hoping nonetheless. I also supplement fresh fruits/veggies, and Duckweed, but it still doesn't seem to be enough. And yes, I agree they shouldn't be on lay yet. I'm not sure why they told me it would be okay. Probably just to make the sale. It wasn't a feed store that I typically go to, and now I don't think I will anymore.

All the pullets and ducklings are now on a 1/2 cup as of yesterday, so they will be getting more feed now, which will be beneficial. I'm also going to start growing fodder within the next few weeks as soon as I can find a place to order the seed from in bulk. I will also look into @Perris, and their method/ingredients to see if I can modify and implement from that to get a higher nutritional content in my mix.

I do have extra birds right now because we brought some in to sell to cancel out the cost of my most recent hatchery order. Once they sell it will be much easier because I will have less mouths to feed in the end.

@Geena, I have seen many articles and references that ducks need a lower protein after the first few week. Usually around 15%. And that higher protein can lead to issues with angel wing, leg, kidney, and liver issues. So I wasn't concerned about them getting less protein so much as the pullets. have you found a higher protein content to not cause these issues? I know that the true cause of angel wing is still up for debate, but I was just of the mindset that higher protein was not good for them in general.

Also, everyone is supplemented with "Durvet vitamins and minerals electrolyte mix" daily. I use it because I know the ducks need a Niacin supplement, and it benefits everyone.

 

[ChickNanny13]

Agree with @Geena @rosemarythyme @Perris

I feed crumbles/pellets not grain and the "ratio" is 1:1 although when I started up it was feed plus added water until I got the constancy I wanted = oatmeal. IF it gets too soupy, just add more feed. I also feed an all purpose (Flock Raiser) so no more stage/age feeding and careful not to overdo the "treats" no matter how healthy. I don't really measure out what I feed; you get the "feel" as to how much & I refill until a few hours before I close them up, not leaving any feed out ... Don't want to attack free loaders. I feed in the morning when I wake up (6am) and check their dish around lunchtime (11am - 1pm), refill if need be.

Did you know you can freeze & defrost ... I read somewhere & tried it.

 

[Incukahlan]

Agree with @Geena @rosemarythyme @Perris

I feed crumbles/pellets not grain and the "ratio" is 1:1 although when I started up it was feed plus added water until I got the constancy I wanted = oatmeal. IF it gets too soupy, just add more feed. I also feed an all purpose (Flock Raiser) so no more stage/age feeding and careful not to overdo the "treats" no matter how healthy. I don't really measure out what I feed; you get the "feel" as to how much & I refill until a few hours before I close them up, not leaving any feed out ... Don't want to attack free loaders. I feed in the morning when I wake up (6am) and check their dish around lunchtime (11am - 1pm), refill if need be.

Did you know you can freeze & defrost ... I read somewhere & tried it.

Thank you for the info. I appreciate the details of what you do. That helps a lot. I did not know you could freeze and defrost. Very interesting.