peach split to

[pedda munnangi]

Zazous, A cameo male bred to an Indiablue hen or bronze hen, we get cameo looking female chicks. Now the big question --- Are these Cameo looking female chicks split to Indiablue or Cameo split to bronze. Sex linked hens can be split to Blackshoulder, white, pied, w/e and a combination of some of them, since these are patterns - not colors. It has also been said on this forum that a sex linked hen " CAN NOT " be split to another sex linked color, like purple, violette, cameo, peach. ete...I understood. it to be correct. Like you said, A cameo hen can be split to another color, like opal or bronze, or charcoal, midnight, jade, for that matter Indiablue etc.. Is it possible to have A cameo opal, or cameobronze, or cameocharcoal etc.. HENS ???. A cameo male bred to opal female produces technically, Ib looking males split to cameo and opal. All the hens though look cameo, technically split to Opal also... If we breed this Cameo looking hen with an opal male, can this opal gene in this hen be possibly passed on to their offsprings?. I am learning every day.

 

[pedda munnangi]

In a normal cross, A purple male (Zs, Zs ) x Cameo female (Zc,W ) = All male chicks (Zs, Zc ) look India blue but actually split to Purple and Cameo and all female chicks are Purple ( Zs W ) . In a different scenario, a Peach male ( double cross over genes, which is a chromosomal aberration, ZsZc, ZsZc ) may questionably segregate into, ZsZs, ZsZc, ZcZc to go into the columns of punnett sguare. Also, Is it possible for Zs, and Zc separately to go in ( in addition to the other 3 combinations).??

 

[pedda munnangi]

Any ideas, opinions, not sure ?///

 

[frenchblackcopper]

I find you get many diffrent answers from members here and some of the larger breeders that do not post here.I have spoken to 3 large breeders this week about new additions coming to the Palace next month and when I ask the same question, I get diffrent answers from them as well.Lets face it,if we each had the number of birds and the hatching capacity to indeed hatch out several hundred peas all from the same group,over time we would see these new anomallies,strange new colors and patterns,ect. all from same colored peas. It's just that only hatching smaller numbers many of us will never hatch out one of these strange new patterns or colors. If all patterns-colors came from India Blues I'm sure there are many more options coming forth in the years to come that have yet to be seen,let alone be fully understood.There are several other forums dedicated to birds such as parrots-ect where dedicated veterinarians and others who knows genetics within that type of bird post clear-concise-accurate answers.It would be very beneficial to ask one of them in my opinion,or invite some to come or visit this forum.
Peafowl in general has taken off the past few years greatly.Everyone wants them,yet few understand them in all areas especially in genetics,me included.Once again there is no database that I can find that shows one individual color-pattern giving examples of what the possibilities are if bred to another color-pattern of pea.

IB Barred pattern bred to Opal-Opal B/S-Opal Pied-Opal W/E
IB Barred pattern bred to White
IB Barred pattern bred to Bronze-Bronze B/S-Bronze Pied-Bronze W/E
IB Barred pattern bred to Purple-Purple B/S-Purple W/E-Purple Pied

Then another chart using IB B/S Bred to,,and another using IB Pied Bred to,
One place where all information is listed,not strewn out thru diffrent forums with some dating back years.There are people-breeders out there who has this knowledge.But getting them al together to draw up such a database would be impossible.

 

[Arbor]

FBC - I attempted to do something like this, but I needed feedback from people here. I got something like 2 answers to my post, and I'm not sure if anyone even stated that it was something they would use. I think it was new2 that suggested a horse breeding search genetics database, I tried contacting someone from that site, but have not yet had a reply - been 2 months, so I'm no longer expecting one. If I have the base for the search engine, I could input all the values manually if necessary, but again, I had almost no interest in such a thing. Its too bad, it would be a valuable tool for those that don't want to mess with punnett squares and such. Just input Bird A genetics and input Bird B genetics, and it would show you all outcomes and %s.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Arbor,,I've heard so many times from some large breeders that information given here on BYC especially on genetics is wrong.They tell me of examples they personally have hatched from known parentage with results contrary to what is being stated here as gospel.
I'm no expert on genetics,,never claimed to be and never will be until a person who studies and knows peafowl genes comes up with a logical exact gene path. Funny,my daughter's course of study for college is genetic therapy dealing with humans and agriculture genetics associated with genetic mutations for herbicide restistance,ect. She knows more about what goes on inside a genetic marker than I ever will,yet peafowl to her is not interesting.
Once again a project like this should have been compiled years ago by the National Organization associated with peacocks.I myself am very interested in such a database,but only if it is accurate,which in comparing what I know in genetics wouldn't take much and anything would help.Thats why I breed straight colors-patterns here for the most part,,breeding like parents will or should always produce like offspring.I intentionally sold all my "split to peach" birds last year because of this.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Hello again, all. It's been awhile, and I'm here under a pseudonym. I just happened to check in to "read only" (I no longer post here) and couldn't resist signing up again when I saw a thread about genetics of "Peach." Please understand that my forte is in genetics first, which I then applied to peafowl. I've never actually owned them myself, but genetics is genetics, and the basics work for peafowl just as they do for other birds. I'm actually turning my interest in it toward rose hybridizing as my hobby while attending grad school, with my intended breeding stock coming this Spring. But I'll have a go at answering what I can.

For future reference, please feel free to email me at [email protected] as I don't know if I'll pop back again here anytime soon.



~AquaEyes

Can there be a peach split to purple or cameo male, and a female? If so, What do we get breeding peach split purple male with a purple hen and with a cameo hen?

No. Peach is genetically Cameo-Purple, just as in cockatiels we have Cinnamon-Pearl. Both are the result of two separate mutated genes found on the same chromosome due to crossover in a male split to both (as was the father of the first Peach peahen). For a peafowl to be Peach, it must have a Purple gene and a Cameo gene, with no corresponding Normal version of either gene to dominate it. That means hens need only one copy (since they have only one Z chromosome) but cocks need two (since they have two Z chromosomes). If a bird IS Peach, then it has both Purple and Cameo. If it's a hen, it can't be split to a sex-linked mutation. If it's a cock, then to be a visual Peach it'd need to have both Purple and Cameo on each Z, thus being visual for both. One can't be visual and split for the same mutation at the same time.

That is exactly my question, my friend. Hopkins live stock selling " A pair of Peach split to Purple "- 2012 hatch on UPA classified. I am not questioning knowledgeable peafowl breeders but trying to learn and understand if there exists such a peafowl?. If so can we see some pictures ? What could be its genotype ? Thanks.

First, a basic terminology lesson in genetics which I've found to sometimes get sloppy here on BYC. "A" split to "B" means "A" is visual and "B" is not, but the gene for "B" is present. What you see SHOULD ALWAYS appear before the word "split" and what is carried but not visible SHOULD ALWAYS come after. It's possible that an ad reading "Peach split to Cameo" had the colors in reverse, and the birds are really "Cameo split to Peach." It's also possible that the pair is made up of a split male and a visual female, allowing for visual Peach and Cameo offspring to be produced.

I'm not sure if it is possible. Since the peach colour is apparently derived from a combination of purple and cameo, I would think it not possible. I too have seen the ad. I'm not sure of the breeder's intentions either. It could be he is selling birds with double purple and single cameo (males that is). We do understand that a hen cannot be split to any sex-linked colour, so the hen would have to be peach or purple.

As written, it's not possible, but you are correct in your guess of what it could be.

from my understanding from aquaeyes earlier thread concerning the creation of peach that peach birds are considered split to both purple and cameo because they carry both genes in order to combine and create peach.

Peach birds are not split to Purple and Cameo -- they are visual for both. The two combined gives the phenotype called Peach. If you took a Purple peacock and magically swapped in Cameo instead of the Normal (or non-Cameo) on both Z chromosomes, you'd get Peach. Since there is no normal version of either the Purple or Cameo gene present, the peacock is not split to either -- he is visual for both.

Due to cross over, Both cameo and purple genes are located on single z chromosome .Therefore , I think both of these genes are passed on together (non separable ). to an offspring . The males with one of this z chromosome and another purple gene on the other z chromosome, make the male " Purple split peach". On the other hand, if the second z chromosome carrys a Cameo gene, then that male will be " a Cameo split peach". of course, the male with two of these cross over z chromosomes makes him PEACH. . Now the big question is---- the possible presence of another purple cameo opal or any other gene on this peach. ?????? The peach female carrys only one cross over z chromosome, with both cameo and purple genes ( non -separable) on it and the other is a sex chromosome.. please correct me. Thanks.

Crossover happens during sperm and egg formation. How frequently two genes on the same chromosome number but on the opposite in the pair will swap is dependent on how far apart they are located on the chromosome. The crossover point is (mostly) random, so two genes at opposite ends of a chromosome will more frequently swap than two genes more closely together. Basically, it's because there's a larger area for the (mostly) randomly-selected crossover site to occur. They can just as often cross over again and separate, again this frequency is dependent upon the distance between the genes on the chromosome (their loci).

For the genes to separate again, however, you'd need to have a normal version of one or the other on the other Z chromosome. This means that separation of Purple and Cameo would occur only in a bird split to Peach -- just as the union of Purple and Cameo occurred during crossover in a peacock split to Purple and Cameo. The two genes can't separate in a visual Peach peacock
or peahen.

Determining whether a peacock is "Cameo split to Peach" or "Purple split to Peach" is simple if you follow the proper terminology. What do you see? A Purple peacock. Was its mother or father Peach? Yes? Then it's Purple split to Peach. What does that mean genetically? It means on one of its Z chromosomes it has the Purple gene, and on the other Z chromosome it has both Purple and Cameo. Because it has two Purples, that is visual. But because it has only one Cameo, that is not. Purple is visual, and since Purple + Cameo on the same Z = Peach, then the peacock is Purple split to Peach.

I think this is where some experimental breeding may be required to clear things up. It is possible to have a sex-linked colour split to a non-sex-linked colour (ie. purple split opal - I have two hens). As for the non-separable purple and cameo gene (which would give rise to peach), I am unsure whether it would be non-separable. It depends on what you are using for breeding. A split male (split peach) would not necessarily have both purple and cameo on one gene. It is quite regular for splitting of the chromosomes to be irregular, which may be the cause of this - especially if we are getting both peach and cameo from the same male. I would guess that a male that is split purple and split cameo could produce hens in purple, cameo and peach, with the peach hens being quite rare. I am planning on doing some breeding in the next few years to determine some of these unknowns. Pedda, I understand you have peach birds, correct. I am pretty sure I know the breeder you received them from - I too have gotten some from him in the past. His breeders that produced these peach birds are not peach in colour, but a Cameo split purple I believe. Maybe you could also do some breeding in the coming years to help clear this up? PM me if interested, so we can see what crosses would need to be done.

It wouldn't be split to both, but in fact actually both (visually portraying cameo and purple at the same time to give rise to the peach colour - a double copy of both).

Proper terminology!

Purple and Cameo are separate genes on the same chromosome. They can separate when the chromosomes cross over. A "split to Peach" male should have both Purple and Cameo on the same chromosome for the terminology to be used properly. If he has Purple on one Z chromosome and Cameo on the other, he should be called "split to Purple and Cameo." While possible offspring will be the same, the chances of getting Peach offspring are greater with a "split to Peach" father because crossover isn't necessary for it to happen -- they're already together. Likewise, the "split to Purple and Cameo" father will have more Purple daughters and Cameo daughters than the "split to Peach" father, since his mutations are already on separate chromosomes and wouldn't require cross over to get them that way. And Arbor, you already got that part.

 

[Rosa moschata]

I asked Craig for the background on my 3 peaches cause the hens are getting white feathers on the wings but not the flight feathers and I also asked him about how can a peach be split to purple and he said he has a IB plit to peach male that he breed to a peach white eyed hen and got peach, ib split to peach and the other normal colors when you breed these two birds but he also got a purple male and a purple silver pied hen. He said in order to get a purple male both parents have to be split to purple and it shouldn't have happened on the hen so she is a peach color split to purple. He then bred the purple peacock from that pair to an ib hen and hatched purple and peach hen chicks.

That makes more sense, that he's calling them a split pair because of the variety of offspring produced. However, he's incorrect in assuming that the hen must be split to Purple, since that's not possible. Here's how he got a Purple male from that pair:

IB split to Peach Male X Peach WE Female

Dad has one Z which is normal at both the Purple and Cameo loci, and one Z which has Purple and Cameo together at their respective loci. Mom has one (and only one) Z, which has Purple and Cameo together (=Peach). During sperm formation, Dad's two Zs crossed over, separating the Purple and Cameo genes onto different Z chromosomes. One sperm carrying a Z with only Purple (no Cameo) fertilized an egg carrying a Z with Purple AND Cameo.

The result? That male got two copies of Purple (one by itself from Dad, and one with Cameo tagging along from Mom) and thus is visual for Purple. Being as he has only one copy of Cameo, he isn't visual for Cameo. Since his copy of Cameo is tagging along with Purple on the same Z (and Purple + Cameo = Peach), then that male offspring is Purple split to Peach. He would also have one copy of WE from Mom, unless Mom herself had only one copy of WE, in which case he'd have a 50% chance of having NO copy of WE.

That breeding result would conclusively prove that Peach is Purple + Cameo, since there's no way for it to happen if Peach was a separate mutation. It'd be just as likely as having a known IB split to Cameo male crossed with Cameo female giving Purple male offspring-- in other words, not possible. But I do find it interesting that the breeder thought of explaining it with "she must be split to Purple", which is also entirely impossible, rather than thinking "huh, I guess Peach really IS Purple + Cameo."

And the last bit -- that he bred that Purple male offspring to an IB hen and got Purple and Peach hens -- is further proof of Peach being Purple + Cameo. Think about it -- the Purple split to Peach male had one Z with Purple, and the other Z with Purple and Cameo together (=Peach). His daughters get one Z or the other, so they'll be either Purple or Peach.

Sorry to say "I told you so" but, well, I did.

would be plausible if peach IS both purple and cameo- which has been brought up several times over the years- and the loci are not particularly close to each other, allowing them to segregate not so rarely. It's a mistake to assume ALL cross overs are going to be very tightly linked. And so that's how purples/cameos seem to come out of peach fairly regularly AND how the first peach showed up from the first discovered purple bred to a cameo.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Does that mean peach male bred to peach female produce not only peaches but also purples and Cameos?. I have not bred. I do not have any practical experience, but very keen on learning Thanks.

No, Peach X Peach = Peach. The only way for the Purple and Cameo in Peach to separate is in a non-Purple, non-Cameo male split to Peach. This is because he has to have a Z chromosome with NEITHER Purple NOR Peach for cross over to separate them. If a Purple split to Peach male had crossover on his Z, the Cameo gene would switch to the other Z -- and again be found together with Purple (the copy which was already there). Cross over could occur, but no difference in effect would be seen.

I don't know, have not bred peach either. Was very tempted to get a single Peach and breed to wild type and see if they segregate into peach, cameo or purple. That would settle things for once, but never liked this color(and worried I would not be able to get rid of them by selling) and not into peafowl much anymore.

My guess is the purple is result of either a peach male that is something like Zp Zc- one on each chromosome. Maybe Z p and c on one chromosome and Zp on the other?

If the male has *both* p and c on *both* chromosomes, like this Z p c Z p c, then I'm not sure how crossing in this situation over would result in chromosome with only p or c on it.

I do know the very first Peach showed up when the very first Purple was bred with a Cameo... shows crossing over was relatively easy- from memory, he did not produce many chicks from the first birds...? might be wrong. anyways the point stands, seems relatively easy to cross over for those two genes.

If you bred a Peach to IB (which wasn't split to Peach, Purple or Cameo), you would not see separation. If you took the sons (which would be split to Peach) and bred them to another IB hen (which wasn't split to Peach, Purple or Cameo), THEN you could see separation in the female offspring, with statistically 50% being IB, and the rest being a mix of Peach (the majority), Purple and Cameo (the minority).

 

[Yoda]

Ok, If I have an IB split to peach and I breed it to a BS purple hen what will the chicks be? I bought this male when it was a chick and only because it is suppose to be split to peach. Will it throw peach hens or purple hens?

I actually have 2 birds and this is the email I got about the background. One is white and the other is IB pied:

"Frank,
The white chick came from a pen that the male was peach and there were 2 hens with him. A white hen and a cameo hen.. The pied came from a pen that the male was IB and 1 white hen and 1 peach hen."

So with the above info can someone tell me which bird will have peach in it? I am thinking the white one will have peach because the father is peach and the pied is not unless the peach hen had pied in it correct?