The aseel thread!!!

[miss heny]

There’s several factors that can make gamefowl breeders hard to communicate with. I often try to guide my YouTube followers to try gamefowl, but they find most gamefowl breeders in their local areas too paranoid and difficult to deal with.

1. Like Miss Henny said, many are wary of people they don’t know. Some don’t have anything to do with cockfighting but are sensitive to being accused of such. Others are in fact still involved in that world and don’t want to deal with outsiders for that reason.

2. Gamefowl people sometimes resent non-gamefowl people trying their hands at raising gamefowl for the concern the breeds will be watered down or ill-bred. Many or even most gamefowl breeders don’t have an interest in promoting gamefowl to the wider public and in-fact are hostile to the notion, which I believe is a serious PR mistake on their part.

3. American gamefowl breeders often don’t think highly of oriental gamefowl and are inclined to disregard inquiries about them.

4. To the extent that humans may be attracted to animals that match their personalities, gamefowl people are often very opinionated and are ready to verbally fight over ideas about their birds with the same zeal game cocks like to physically fight one another. Its not uncommon for gamefowl fanciers to get off of speaking terms with each other over differences in opinion as to this or that aspect of gamefowl raising.

I think you’ll find more information and helpfulness here on this forum than on FB-type social media groups for gamefowl. Many of the people in those FB groups are in fact cockers using their birds for sport, and they’re often simply repeating conventional wisdom someone else repeated.

He put it in far better words than I could.

Also point 2. More breeders are starting to see the mistake but it a slow turn. I stand how we'll save the strains is by focusing on APA reccognition. Don't breed out the game but attract the fanciers who want a challenge.

I been in love with game fowl since I was 11, I never grew up in the environment which makes me a wildcard in the social dynamics. Plus not many women openly out there

 

[fluffycrow]

@miss heny and @Florida Bullfrog said it way better than I ever could. The truth is gamefowl breeders are getting better with time, but changes are slow. Things might be better there in the US, that I do not know, what I do know is that changes here are much slower. There are very few breeders here to begin with, and I refuse to buy birds from someone who uses their birds in the arena, and even if I didn't, they are unreachable due to the fact they aren't exactly legal. Then we have Indian and Asian people who breed these birds, but they don't talk Greek or English at all, so you usually have to find someone to translate, I was lucky enough to get my birds this way. Then we have the last category, of hobby breeders, but as far as I know there are only 3 or 4 around, all of which are inactive at the moment, or don't sell to outsiders. So you are way more lucky over there, but things could definitely get better. That's one of the main reasons I started this thread, if we start talking about what it's like to live and interact with these birds on a daily basis more people will become interested in keeping them, and they might just become more readily available around the world

 

[miss heny]

I'm blessed with the fact my future FIL is mexican so when it comes to the mexican game breeds he can help me with the Spanish. I know a little but not enough to get far currently, however alot of people don't have people like that in their life to help translate.

And DON'T trust facebook tranlate... photo is to show why. Retintos means like dark bay akin to horse colour. Aka dark chicken not... what FB translate went.

 

[fluffycrow]

Having people around you that can translate for you has definitely proven to be helpful for me, as I've said I wouldn't have my birds if I didn't, those birds look great by the way

 

[FaverollesFlock]

Thank you so much for such a detailed break down of just what some of the logic is behind the behaviors I have run into. It makes sense, perfect sense, that there is some secrecy...but after poking around for 6 months in some of these groups where everyone seemed to talk to each other but no one would respond to me...I was beginning to wonder if it was them or me!

My daughter and I show for fun. We breed serama primarily because we have an amazing state serama club a half hour from our house and my daughter has really found community through the group. Bantams aren't my calling in general and I have had a dozen other heritage breeds that I enjoy but haven't never felt called to go much deeper than gathering eggs. These Asil though. Wow. It was like something just clicked and I wanted to know all I could and figure out how to share with others what an incredible bird this is. After all, if it wasn't for games, we wouldn't have the breed diversity we have today. Game fowl were kept as companions and for sport for thousands of years before meat and eggs were ever part of the equation.

I really appreciate how generous you all have been with your time and your wisdom. I noticed many of the pictures in the SOP are sponsored by the Oriental Game Fanciers Assoc. I heard from a shamo breeder that it no longer exists. Is there an active US game club in existance at all anymore?

 

[miss heny]

Thank you so much for such a detailed break down of just what some of the logic is behind the behaviors I have run into. It makes sense, perfect sense, that there is some secrecy...but after poking around for 6 months in some of these groups where everyone seemed to talk to each other but no one would respond to me...I was beginning to wonder if it was them or me!

My daughter and I show for fun. We breed serama primarily because we have an amazing state serama club a half hour from our house and my daughter has really found community through the group. Bantams aren't my calling in general and I have had a dozen other heritage breeds that I enjoy but haven't never felt called to go much deeper than gathering eggs. These Asil though. Wow. It was like something just clicked and I wanted to know all I could and figure out how to share with others what an incredible bird this is. After all, if it wasn't for games, we wouldn't have the breed diversity we have today. Game fowl were kept as companions and for sport for thousands of years before meat and eggs were ever part of the equation.

I really appreciate how generous you all have been with your time and your wisdom. I noticed many of the pictures in the SOP are sponsored by the Oriental Game Fanciers Assoc. I heard from a shamo breeder that it no longer exists. Is there an active US game club in existance at all anymore?

There is the american gamefowl club, oegb is on facebook only same with American Game bantams. Unfortunately alot of breed clubs the last decades have been struggling, just saw a post of folks trying to revive the Sumutra association.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

There is a legitimate American game bantam club on FB that’s made up of the who’s who of AGBs. As for large gamefowl, I’ve only found small localized groups devoted to breeding them for reasons other than cocking. I’m a part of a pretty good network in North Florida and Alabama that breeds them for the same reasons I do, for homestead free ranging, but also believes in keeping them gamey.

I do believe the future of gamefowl in Western Europe and the United States is getting them in the hands of average hobbyists who can learn about their positive traits and the utility of keeping them gamey. If an elite gamefowl breeder doesn’t like how one of the new average Joes is breeding them, that’s fine. It doesn’t effect how the elite breeder can manage his fowl. The benefit to the elite breeder will be that keeping gamefowl will no longer seem suspicious once more people realize their usefulness and begin keeping them on mass.

 

[miss heny]

There is a legitimate American game bantam club on FB that’s made up of the who’s who of AGBs. As for large gamefowl, I’ve only found small localized groups devoted to breeding them for reasons other than cocking. I’m a part of a pretty good network in North Florida and Alabama that breeds them for the same reasons I do, for homestead free ranging, but also believes in keeping them gamey.

I do believe the future of gamefowl in Western Europe and the United States is getting them in the hands of average hobbyists who can learn about their positive traits and the utility of keeping them gamey. If an elite gamefowl breeder doesn’t like how one of the new average Joes is breeding them, that’s fine. It doesn’t effect how the elite breeder can manage his fowl. The benefit to the elite breeder will be that keeping gamefowl will no longer seem suspicious once more people realize their usefulness and begin keeping them on mass.

Yeah I'm trying to get into that AGB currently

 

[FaverollesFlock]

Alrighty game gurus…I have remembered a couple more questions that have been rolling around waiting for the right people to ask. First, the standard calls for disqualification of Aseels with a tail carried about horizontal. Now this I can see for Shamo, their angle is quite different, but would you cut an otherwise quality breeder over tail carriage? Seems like most of the Aseel hens I see have this apparent flaw. Next question, when working with rare breeds how do you determine your culls (from breeding programs not a chopping block cull). There are the obvious health issue and deformities that are no question but what about things like sop disqualification when all else is in alignment. I hear split wing in orientals is something that breeders overlook however this would not be the case in other non game breeds.

 

[fluffycrow]

OK, this might be a longer post, so be prepared for that, and I will also include some photos so that I can help you even more. OK so, to answer your first question, yes horizontal tail placement is considered a fault for aseel, and yes, that applies to hens that have horizontal tail placement as well. Now, this is more of a personal thing, but every breeders should decide what they consider to be main faults and what not so important. Tail placement in aseel is really important, that's why most breeders classify it as a major fault when a bird dies not have a tail following the straight line of the body. Now, as mentioned before, depending on the stick available to you, and depending on how well the bird represents all other aspects of the standard, in my opinion it's not the end of the world to breed a bird with a not perfect tail, though a totally horizontal tail is far from ideal, and if you see that the trait is passed off in the offspring, I'd say remove the bird from the breeding program. What I excuse when it comes to my birds, is a bird that has a tail that is in alignment with the line of the body when walking or running or foraging, but tends to rise a little when the bird is standing and completely standing straight. Now, as for your second question, I'm going to repeat what I previously said. Each breeder had to decide which faults they consider more serious than others, and cull based on said decisions. Appart from physical faults, bad legs, cross beak etc...... the most important thing to me is temperament. An aseel should always be friendly towards people, and in no way tolerant of other roosters, or an excess of hens for that matter. I refuse to breed an aseel that is not gamey, it is not an aseel at this point. Now let's move on to when I decide to cull a bird for "appearance" faults. For that I'll give you an example. I have a bird with wattles. In my personal evaluation, I consider this a major fault. So what do I do? I scrutinize every aspect of my bird, and if they otherwise seem pure and perfect, I give them a shot. I choose a mate with the traits I want to improve in my bird, and if even then I see that most of its offspring carries that negative trait, in my case wattles, I cull them from the breeding program. I hope this was thorough enough, and here are the photos as promised. The first two showcase what I mean when I say I feel like it's fine for the tail to rise when the bird is in stacked position, and only then, and the third is a photo of him showing his wattles