Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[rural mouse]

Is it from a jackalope?

Wrong side of the Mississippi.... but...
well played!

 

[BY Bob]

This is such a relief! You have an amazing Vet… as soon as I got the goats into the Bar the first thing I did was check my phone for this update. Upon seeing your title I was tentatively optimistic that it was good news, and finished putting all my girls up for the night before sitting down to read the full post. Fingers still very much crossed for you both!

Thanks. Still a ways to go to figure this out.

 

[BY Bob]

Given your background, my last post might make more sense to you. Seems a poorly functioning liver can negatively affect blood calcium levels. (I'm guessing if that happens, the body pulls calcium from the bone to compensate? Calcium is one of the signaling ions, in the nervous system, no??)

So, maybe if you can get the liver on a better path, a lot of other things will fall into place? I am completely at a loss to help in how to do that other than addressing the low level infection....which you are doing. I so hope you can get to the bottom of this for yours & Lilly's sake!

I'm so sorry @BY Bob I wish I knew more biology & could provide helpful suggestions. (I'm not good at 'watching from a distance' and feeling helpless. ) Lilly is such a good girl - beautiful, stern but fair (in the chicken world), and very much a leader. I am always impressed at how composed she is when 'out & about'. And how loyal and defensive/protective of her 'girls'. (I remember her reaction to Sansa's protests at the vet, and also recall you saying she was comforting Hattie at the vets!)

Here's the good thing, you don't need to have the answers. There is a vet on the case. She went to one of the top vet schools in the US and is willing to consult with other experts. You can't ask for more than that. I'm trying very hard to leave this in her hands. It is a new experience for me but really why I went to her. Hopefully we can all learn from this and we find a way to help Lilly.

 

[micstrachan]

I wasn't very detailed in my earlier post. I'll close that gap now.

Some time ago (it feels like 18 months) the vet took a look at Peggy's liver (as in surgically - he opened her and looked at her liver) and made a confirmed diagnosis of hepatic lipidosis, noting her liver had fractured and she had internal bleeding.

It was my fault for giving too many treats because the hens loved treats and I loved seeing them excited for meal worms or bread crusts or whatever.

Back then, they were on a 17% protein blend for layers, made up of "mash" (shaped like a crumble but with nutrients for layers) and grains. Perhaps Peggy was selectively eating her favourite grains and ignoring the mash.

The vet said

• High protein pellets 24/7
• Foraging
• Cottage cheese
• DMG
• Milk thistle
• Biotin
• Choline
• Almost no treats
• If I must give a treat, it had to be fresh food like lettuce, carrot, apple, tomato etc

I feed the four supplements mixed into a nightly mash (ie pellets softened with water). I give it in four bowls, one per hen, with maybe a quarter to a half teaspoon of cottage cheese on top. They come running and the bowls are usually empty by roosting time.

Peggy has thrived. They all have.

Until she sat for four weeks recently. While she was sitting she did not get the evening dinner. She ate regularly and maintained good habits, but she was zoned out at dinner time and I didn't want to mess with her body clock by getting her up again. Her poops went black. I presume her liver bled again. She's ok again now that she's been back on the regular diet for a few weeks.

Mainly for this reason, I won't let her sit in future. (But also she killed the chick and now I don't trust her with hatchlings.)

That's the full story of Peggy's liver.

For your hens, I think what you're doing sounds good. But I would be tempted to let them fill up on chicken food whenever they wanted to and I would keep the chop to a minimum.

Would it be possible for your new coop to have two apartments? One apartment for the retirees and their diet, the other apartment for the layers and their diet? Still the same flock while foraging around the garden, but living as next door neighbours in the coop. Friendships would stay strong but there might be fewer scuffles at roosting and better dietary outcomes.

(And I share your fears about corn, mealworms and pasta, your friendship for Bob, and your pain in bringing up these thoughts )

Thank you for this detailed response, MJ!

I love that we are able to learn from each other snd brainstorm.

I have to go into work at 6:30, so I’m just popping in. Sorry for the short response.

 

[bgmathteach]

I wasn't very detailed in my earlier post. I'll close that gap now.

Some time ago (it feels like 18 months) the vet took a look at Peggy's liver (as in surgically - he opened her and looked at her liver) and made a confirmed diagnosis of hepatic lipidosis, noting her liver had fractured and she had internal bleeding.

It was my fault for giving too many treats because the hens loved treats and I loved seeing them excited for meal worms or bread crusts or whatever.

Back then, they were on a 17% protein blend for layers, made up of "mash" (shaped like a crumble but with nutrients for layers) and grains. Perhaps Peggy was selectively eating her favourite grains and ignoring the mash.

The vet said

• High protein pellets 24/7
• Foraging
• Cottage cheese
• DMG
• Milk thistle
• Biotin
• Choline
• Almost no treats
• If I must give a treat, it had to be fresh food like lettuce, carrot, apple, tomato etc

I feed the four supplements mixed into a nightly mash (ie pellets softened with water). I give it in four bowls, one per hen, with maybe a quarter to a half teaspoon of cottage cheese on top. They come running and the bowls are usually empty by roosting time.

Peggy has thrived. They all have.

Until she sat for four weeks recently. While she was sitting she did not get the evening dinner. She ate regularly and maintained good habits, but she was zoned out at dinner time and I didn't want to mess with her body clock by getting her up again. Her poops went black. I presume her liver bled again. She's ok again now that she's been back on the regular diet for a few weeks.

 

[rural mouse]

Thanks. Still a ways to go to figure this out.

Sounds like Lilly isn't ready to give up yet....and the rest of your ladies are pulling together to comfort her. It's amazing to see. We had an old dog and 2 year pup who fought with each other from time to time, working out who was boss (pinning the both of them was challenging, but happened). Then the old guy had a stroke, leaving him blind and unable to navigate through familiar surroundings. The young pup would guide him around the house, nudging from one side, then the other to get the old guy through doorways, to the food dish, etc.

 

[bgmathteach]

Sorry about the previous accidental post

The vet said

• High protein pellets 24/7
• Foraging
• Cottage cheese
• DMG
• Milk thistle
• Biotin
• Choline
• Almost no treats
• If I must give a treat, it had to be fresh food like lettuce, carrot, apple, tomato etc

@MaryJanet What is DMG? Are you able to get all of these supplements in a regular store, or is there a specialty place you go?

 

[micstrachan]

Don’t forget she is six years old so her diet hasn’t been killing her very fast.

Yes, good point. I could be wrong, of course. But I feed way less treats than Bob does and three of my four necropsied hens carried excess body fat. It killed one of them. The only one who didn’t had very advanced cancer.

I did not mean to imply this was Bob’s fault. There are many factors that affect health. But I stand by my suggestion of reevaluating diet, regardless. I don’t like being lectured to, either, so it was not easy to write. However, I felt I wouldn’t be a good friend if I didn’t mention it, no matter how uncomfortable it is.

Bob will do whatever Bob wants to do with his birds and I will continue to hang out and support him, whatever his decisions are.

That’s it for me this morning. Gotta get to work. Have a great day, “peeple!”

 

[BY Bob]

MJ, do you also ration the pellets or is it available free free choice all the time? I am trying to remember NOT to top off the feed dishes a couple mornings a week so they get a little hungry and gave to dig around to find the spilled feed. But mostly it’s available free choice at all times (outside the coop).

I have been giving lots of produce (some combination of carrot, kale, cabbage, zucchini, apple, broccoli, blueberries, or tomato along with wheat berries sprouted for four days) so could be overdoing it. I scatter it all around the run each day, and it’s fun to watch them forage around the run, being active first thing in the morning. I feel chickens who are confined to a run or even a back yard would fare better on produce than high-calorie, high-carb, and/or high-fat treats, and I’m trying to offer variety. It seems I can see mine getting more active. Now, I don’t know if this is because of their diet, days getting longer, or something else, but I can see it.

Then there’s the whole calcium issue. Calcium biochemistry is delicate, and I am far from an expert on it. I do wonder if calcium from calcium-rich foods might be more readily metabolized than straight calcium supplements in chickens. In addition to free choice oyster shell, I’ve been offering a dairy treat (lowfat greek yogurt mixed with lowfat cottage cheese) a couple times a week. My hope is it is a good animal protein and calcium boost. I just hope lowfat is healthful enough for my little fatties.

I love the idea of a high protein pellet, but have had a few soft shell issues despite constant access to oyster shell, so I’ve been feeding mostly layer. This concerns me for my non-layers, but so far in my flock laying issues have been the top killers, so I’m sticking with it for now. It’s only 17% protein, so I sometimes mix it with 22% protein starter/grower.

I don’t know if my current feeding practices will have good or bad long term effects, but the birds seem healthy and happy, and like I said before, seem to be slimming down. My undertanding is heat and laying hormones can both be factors in fatty liver disease, so I’m hoping to get them in top shape before summer.

My point of this rambling post is that dietary changes can be transformative and just a reminder that I have first hand knowledge of excess body fat killing chickens. So here it is: Bob, I know it’s so cute that your girls love their pasta, cracked corn and meal worms, but I fear it might be killing them. It stings a bit to say that to such a loving, caring chicken care taker as you, but as your friend, I must. Please forgive me. I don’t claim to have the answers, but I hope you will fully evaluate the diet of your flock and consider some tweaks.

Thanks for the thoughts. I can see why this would be a concern of yours and it is something of which I am actually very cognisent.

No one gets more than 10% of their diet in snacks, be it pasta, corn, or meal worms. They also get vegetables like cabbage and broccoli, as well as eggs, walnuts, beef, etc.

You all see cute things like them eating pasta. As an example though, pasta has not been a treat for well over a month around here. Last year the 6 hens split 15 lbs of meal worms. (I checked my order history) That's 2.5 lbs per hen over 365 days or 0.1 oz per day.

If it can be tied together that these treats are causing the problem I certainly will stop but the perception that they are eating a diet of mostly treats would be a product of the videos I share and not reality.

 

[BY Bob]

I’m desperately catching up, only 100 pages behind now
Update from me…
Snow had one tail feather left first thing this morning, now she’s like a fluffy beachball
View attachment 2996413View attachment 2996414

The other issue I have had the past few days is these cuties
View attachment 2996415

I have about 20 come daily to feast on my apples on the trees (it’s our almond tree they are perched on in the photo, they didn't what I was up to so they got up high!)
I had to make the choice: beautiful wildlife in my suburban backyard or my apples.
I chose the wildlife, they can have as much fruit as they desire. They are simply gorgeous to watch and they knock apples onto the ground for the chooks so everyone wins I guess

Snow looks more like a snowball!