Historic Presence of Jungle Fowl in the American Deep South

[Florida Bullfrog]

I see what you mean by the small eggs you don't get as much in terms of eating. If you get something that lays bigger eggs and cross it with your games Be sure to Save some pure games, you know what you have now But you don't know what the new cross birds are going to be like. But it seems like you have a good plan worked out. That's great that some of your family is wanting to start a flock of their own birds. Breeds like these need to be more wide spread.


Correct me if I'm wrong but "gameness" it fighting behavior in the ring, Right?

So in that case I see no benefit in gameness.

I would rather my birds be better suited for life in the woods. But that doesn't mean you couldn't keep a separate flock that you selectively breed for gameness. I do like the look of a good game bird.

Yes, the gameness is the “fight to the death against all odds” temperament. I agree it probably isn’t useful to me for the bird I want to create. I just get annoyed by the “it isn’t a game if it isn’t murderous or stupid suicidal” assertion. To my mind “game” is a genetic breed or sets of breeds, not a behavior, just like a bulldog is a bulldog whether it has the temperament for the pit or bullbaiting or not (I raise bulldogs selected for athleticism but good disposition and minimal catch instinct, if that tells you anything about how I would look at gamefowl as a breed). One wouldn’t call a gamey Rhode Island Red a gamefowl because of its disposition. There’s a part of me that wants to throw some gaminess in just to tell the naysayers to put it where the sun don’t shine if they deny my game birds are “game.” I understand the argument more if “gaminess” was a part of the breed standard and one could argue whether a bloodline conformed to the standard or not. But a non-conforming game wouldn’t cease to be game, it would just be a game that doesn’t meet the standard. Like a bulldog that’s too large for the breed standard but still a pure bred bulldog. He couldn’t win a show but no one would say he couldn’t be called a “bulldog.”

Anyhow, I’m maneuvering to introduce a bunch of different layer breeds to my flock then let the game roosters breed them and then line breed the crosses back to the game roosters and see what I get. I’ll still keep my game flock pure by only allowing game roosters to be in the flock, so my pure game hens will only be bred by them. I will cull crossed cockerals as they come out until I’m at the third generation. I should be able to easily tell pure game eggs from the cross eggs.

Below are some game x leghorn crosses I sent to a family member (the three mostly white ones). The rooster is as large as his father Raptor in spite of being not half grown, so I think he’ll be a big rooster. I’m curious to see how the hens lay. I don’t like the white

Here is Raptor and Hei Hei sizing each other up the day before I sent Raptor away. You can see that they have different builds. I have 11 pure game bitties from each rooster with 4-6 cockerals in the batch. 3 of them look impressive at 6 weeks in terms of size and outpaced maturing. They will probably be built more like Raptor than Hei Hei, but possibly with red ears instead of white. I have another 5 fresh pure bitties from Raptor alone that are about a week old.

 

[Don 27]

I learned today that I’ll need to breed for larger size. It was either in this thread or one of the game picture threads where there was some debate on whether hawk predation selects for larger or smaller size. I have an answer as to Florida hawks.

Our most common hawk is the red shouldered hawk. Very much a hawk of the woods. Small, not known to be a voracious chicken eater. Yet I previously lost one game hen to one several weeks ago.

Today a red shouldered hawk grabbed a game hen right in front of me while she was distracted by a treat I threw out. The game hen would have been small enough to fly off with had I not broke off the attack.

I have also previously observed red shouldered hawks (probably the same pair) try to find a way into my OEGB coop to the point of even walking the perimeter of it on the ground.

Finally, since my newest batch of bitties hatched a few says ago a tilly hawk (some species of dove-sized kestrel) has been trying to get to the chicks.

The common birds of prey here are definitely preferring the small fowl to the large fowl. I have only known the gamefowl to be the subjects of attack.

We do have redtails and great horned owls but the last redtail attack I saw was on a big layer decades ago and I’ve never had an owl problem. I think those two species could kill anything I could keep. So I need to be trying to improve survivability from the smaller, more common, birds of prey.

While I’m at it I ought to also consider improving egg production.

We have a bunch of red tailed hawks...they are Annoying the crap out of me! I don't remember us talking about bigger birds being better at avoiding hawks on this thread . It must have been on the other thread. I'm gonna research a little and see if I can find that thread that you are talking about. I would like to find a solution to the hawk problems around here .

Yes, the gameness is the “fight to the death against all odds” temperament. I agree it probably isn’t useful to me for the bird I want to create. I just get annoyed by the “it isn’t a game if it isn’t murderous or stupid suicidal” assertion. To my mind “game” is a genetic breed or sets of breeds, not a behavior, just like a bulldog is a bulldog whether it has the temperament for the pit or bullbaiting or not (I raise bulldogs selected for athleticism but good disposition and minimal catch instinct, if that tells you anything about how I would look at gamefowl as a breed). One wouldn’t call a gamey Rhode Island Red a gamefowl because of its disposition. There’s a part of me that wants to throw some gaminess in just to tell the naysayers to put it where the sun don’t shine if they deny my game birds are “game.” I understand the argument more if “gaminess” was a part of the breed standard and one could argue whether a bloodline conformed to the standard or not. But a non-conforming game wouldn’t cease to be game, it would just be a game that doesn’t meet the standard. Like a bulldog that’s too large for the breed standard but still a pure bred bulldog. He couldn’t win a show but no one would say he couldn’t be called a “bulldog.”

Anyhow, I’m maneuvering to introduce a bunch of different layer breeds to my flock then let the game roosters breed them and then line breed the crosses back to the game roosters and see what I get. I’ll still keep my game flock pure by only allowing game roosters to be in the flock, so my pure game hens will only be bred by them. I will cull crossed cockerals as they come out until I’m at the third generation. I should be able to easily tell pure game eggs from the cross eggs.

Below are some game x leghorn crosses I sent to a family member (the three mostly white ones). The rooster is as large as his father Raptor in spite of being not half grown, so I think he’ll be a big rooster. I’m curious to see how the hens lay. I don’t like the white
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Here is Raptor and Hei Hei sizing each other up the day before I sent Raptor away. You can see that they have different builds. I have 11 pure game bitties from each rooster with 4-6 cockerals in the batch. 3 of them look impressive at 6 weeks in terms of size and outpaced maturing. They will probably be built more like Raptor than Hei Hei, but possibly with red ears instead of white. I have another 5 fresh pure bitties from Raptor alone that are about a week old.

yes I agree . If the bird has just lost its gameness from not being selectively bred for gameness but is still a pure game bird I would still consider it a game bird. Like a multiple purpose breed such as buff Orpington . The buff Orpington didn't reach full size but it was still a pure buff Orpington. So I would still considered it a buff Orpington.


other then that . Sound like you know what to do with breeding your birds. I have yet seen a all white chicken that looks similar to a game fowl.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

NowI'm more perplexed concerning my current flock. I've never weighed chickens in my life, so I'm not one to look at a chicken and guess their weight correctly.

I just weighed Hei Hei this evening... he's 2.4lbs at 10 months. Raptor would be bigger, but not much bigger. I figure Raptor probably tops out at 3lbs at the most relative to Hei Hei's size. The hens would be significantly smaller, but still about twice as large as my OEGB hens.

The hatchery juglefowl from various sources seem to be listed at topping out around 4.5lbs for roosters. Blueface and other wild-looking American game lines seem to also be around that size at the low end. American game bantams seem to come in at under 2lbs according to what I can google. Spanish gamefowl are the right size to match my flock, but don't seem to match mine in other traits such as coloration.

Any ideas what my current flock might have in it? They breed so true that they're obviously the product of some sort of breeding program. That almost surely have to be something besides random mutts.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I am also considering the possibility that my birds are overweight. When I got coturnix quail I started keeping 30% protein feed on hand and I started feeding it to all my birds due to the reasonable price I can get it at my local feed store. My games started growing noticeably when I switched over. They may be fat or they may be structurally larger than what they might have been otherwise. I also did the math last night and realized I was feeding them much more than I thought. Therefore I’m going to both cut back portions and switch to lower protein. Then I’ll see if their weight drops or not.

If they are overweight, then I may still be dealing with some line of American game bantam.

 

[Chicken Heel]

I just came across this thread and the OP and the other posts with photos afterward bring back my fondest memories of the type of chickens my grandfather had. They are my first recollection of chickens and his birds were what he called American Game/Bantam mixes. There on the top of Beech Mountain, NC, they roamed the pasture and woods that surrounded his barn during the day and roosted in the trees at night. I recall them being in small groups of one rooster with three or four hens. The hens would lay all over the place including in the barn. It was like finding a treasure when I found a nest but my Grandpa always had a rule which was look but don't touch. He had also advised me to give any hens with chicks a wide berth. While I was pretty good about leaving eggs alone, I found it dang near impossible not to go near the chicks. One day I followed a hen with about a dozen chicks into a barn stall while thinking about finally getting to hold of one of those chicks. I then quickly found out about why my Grandpa Shook had advised me not to crowd a hen with diddles because that Mama bird lit me up. She flew up in my face while flapping her wings and scared the heck out of me with her cackling . When I came out of the barn still shaken from the experience, there stood my Grandpa laughing his tail off. He then told me about getting flogged in the same manner at about the same age after not listening to his Dad about a Mama hen with diddles being protective. After that, I always heeded any advice he gave me.

 

[Degalisto]

When I was growing up(I was born in 1951) the San Diego Zoo had the Red Jungle fowl running wild all over the place..often with little babies following the moms. This lasted for decades but the coyotes got savvy and that kinda put an end to them..not sure if the have them any more. It actually was a source for them. I also had a friend who had Banties(they looked just like the Jungle Fowl) out in the back country of SD..and they too roosted in trees. In fact he moved away and years later there was still some chickens around.

 

[HenOnAJuneBug]

The hens would lay all over the place including in the barn. It was like finding a treasure when I found a nest but my Grandpa always had a rule which was look but don't touch.

What did he raise them for if not for the eggs?

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

What did he raise them for if not for the eggs?

I can’t speak for Chicken Heel, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t often used for meat birds. Not because of their build. They’re scrawny little things. But because they’re so prolific and low maintenance that they amount to free meat that multiplies itself.

My flock is set to more than double its size in 10 months of life entirely by setting hens. I’ve got a large, rich, farm, so they have room to grow. I suspect this spring and summer will yield a crazy amount of setting hens as they turn 1 year old. My flock was hatched last April.

I couldn’t be more proud of these birds. I wish I knew what they were or what recognized breed they’re closest to. I’m going to reach out to what ties I have to the University of Florida’s agg program to see if someone is interested in taking a look at them. If I knew for sure what I had I’d be in a better position to know whether I ought to find some bigger birds to cross them with or whether I ought to preserve them as they are.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

A couple of weekends ago an uncle and I talked about the games on the homestead. He said back into boyhood (1950s) they only had games on the farm to provide their poultry needs. No laying varieties. He said that the shear number of game hens made up for their habit of hiding nests. There were always enough eggs locatable for eating purposes.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Check it out!

https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1762&context=etd
According to this research paper, red jungle fowl of wild caught, pure, Indian stock were released and distrubted all over the Southeast from the late 1940s to the 1970s. Way more than what we’ve acknowledged in this thread up until now. Far more than just the Fitzgerald group. It says over 1,000 were released into the wild in Florida in multiple counties and more were distributed to private breeders in Florida.

How ‘bout that?