Norway's Sad Tragedy

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Having spent many years dealing with severely mentally ill people, I can say that the above statement rings untrue to me. It makes it sound like 1.) They are making up stuff 2.) They make a choice not to 'use their brains'.

One fellow I knew said to his doctor, 'But why can't I spot when I'm becoming sicker? Why do I need someone else's help to do that?'

The doctor replied, 'Because the part of your brain that would do that for you - that part of your brain is gone'.

The doctor is right. In severe mental illness, brain tissue is actually lost. On autopsy, you can pick up the brain and visually see the changes in it - with your eye. You don't need a microscope or a fancy scanner. You can pick the brain up in your hand and feel that it is lighter. Brain tissue is actually destroyed.

Actually, what happens is that their brains are damaged by the disease they have, so that they aren't choosing to 'not use their brains', but instead, their brains are profoundly damaged. Their brains don't work properly any more. They aren't making a choice, they are being sick.

The other thing is that the voices don't 'make' people do things. What happens is that there is an essential instability in the brain. Emotions boil up for no reason, impulses jump up out of the brain and people simply DO things. The 'voices' and 'visions' simply ACCOMPANY that unstable behavior. They don't cause it, though to the person themselves, it certainly seems that they are being 'told' to do something. In fact, what is happening is that the brain is so disordered that people just DO things without thinking it over and deciding in the normal way. My friend's brother was happily chatting with him one day, and then he walked over to the edge of their second floor porch and jumped off it and died. He wasn't unhappy, nothing bad had happened, his brain simply misfired, and he simply walked off the 2nd floor porch. People have lept out of windows and run a mile on two broken legs, too.

They just do not 'choose'. Their brain is so disordered that behavior just appears out of nowhere. For absolutely no reason.

I know many people don't like that idea. I think the idea of a person being sick, makes them think of people who CLAIM to be sick to try and avoid responsibility for their actions. And criminals often try to do that - to avoid responsibility for their acts. They don't limit themselves to claims of mental illness, though, they'll try any tactic.

But the problem is, that since their brains are more intact, they are simply unable to reproduce the speech and behavior patterns of a severely mentally ill person. The person who really is mentally ill is so disordered that even the way he composes sentences is affected.

But most of these criminals have a very 'TV Movie' kind of idea of what severe mental illness looks like. Their attempts to mimic severe mental illness are laughable.

What most of the criminals don't realize, is that these severe mental illnesses are accompanied by what's called 'Soft Signs'. These are actual PHYSICAL, neurological symptoms, that an unaffected person simply can't imitate. For schizophrenia there are up to 75 different 'Soft Signs' they may have.

Their eye gaze isn't even normal. THere is am extremely high speed, intermittent jerking of the eye that not even the cleverest person is physically able to imitate.

As long as the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist or counselor), the criminal is extremely unlikely to successfully fool the authorities.

But what these 'Soft Signs' prove, is very important. That brain is very, very damaged. Severely mentally ill people who are violent, are generally going to continue to behave in the same way unless they are kept on medication. The medication does its best to 'balance' the chemical activity in the brain.

However, the severely mentally ill person is not the only type of violent criminal there is.

There are other possibilities.

I don't have enough information yet to understand what this guy is like. However, a SEVERE mental illness is not the only possibility.

In fact, horrible crimes, especially those with loudly stated political motives, can actually be the act of a person with a rather MILD mental disorder. Some of these people look very normal to people. They usually do not have successful close relationships, but they hold down a job, dress neatly and live at least what looks like a fairly normal life.

Their issue is that they have ONE AREA in which their brain does not work normally. No one has proven that this kind of thinking is a 'choice', either. These thinking patterns tend to be extremely persistent and remain there very long term.

They MIGHT eventually progress to more serious mental disease. But quite often, when they commit their crimes, they are in this very strange state where they are not obviously ill, but have one area of their thinking that is extremely irrational.

These people are almost never diagnosed as 'mentally ill'. They MIGHT have periods when they are more ill, and less functional. In that case it may take years for them to act out their plans.

Or, they may always look very 'normal' to others. They may NEVER actually really become severely ill. They may state in this state for all their lives.

For example, some of have met successful businessmen who seem obsessed by one bizarre idea. Such as that their wife is unfaithful. 'Evidence' will be things like, their food tastes too salty, or that when the neighbor drove by their house, he slowed down. That means his wife is having an affair with him, not that he slowed down to plug in his cell phone to the charger, or turn on his CD player.

There tends to be a very bizarre quality to their thinking, but it is strangely limited to only one subject or area of thinking.

In other words, there are outwardly normal looking people who have one area of their thinking that is extremely bizarre and irrational.

THESE people are extremely liable to develop a 'belief system' that can be very, very dangerous.

And the trouble with them, is that the rest of their thinking is sufficiently intact that they can plan very elaborate acts over a long period of time.

They ALSO can recruit others. The intensity of their personality and drive can be so strong that they recruit others to help them. These are generally weak willed people who seem to have virtually no resistance to the person. When they recruit others, or when they get the financial backing of an extremist organization, people often miss that the underlying root of the problem is an area of extremely disordered, irrational thinking.

They get ALLL wrapped up in the beliefs of the organization and totally miss what is really going on.

They often will appear to align themselves with some extreme group, and at least on the surface, they appear to be 'just another one of those guys in that weird group'.

But because they have this flaw in their thinking, this sort of person winds up putting the group's beliefs into action to incredible, unimaginable extremes.

Most extremist organizations LOVE these kinds of people.

Most extremists organization avoid like the plague, anyone who is obviously disfunctional. Those obviously sick, really disorganized people are called 'Loose Cannons' and these organizations work very hard to keep them OUT of their group.

But they LOVE these mildly ill people. These mildly ill guys tend to be somewhat isolated, suspicious of others, and have a single minded purpose that is unbelievable. In other words, they are perfect for the job.

You would think that because they are only dysfunctional in one area of thinking, that the rest of their normal thinking would some how allow them to see that they are crazy in this one area and they would think it through and pull back. But the fact of the matter is that somehow that one area of irrational thinking is so powerful that it shuts out anything else.

They can be relied upon to publicize the beliefs of the organization, but keep any of the chief leaders of the group from taking any risks of harm or criminal convictions.

Ummm, have you read his 1500 page manifesto? The guy knew exactly what he wanted, & trained to do what he did...he wasn't mentally ill, but idelogically ignorant...ignorant to the turths...that god doesn't exisit, & that he was "called" to do what he did..."called" by that same god that he said talked to him...many people will fawn all over the place, tryin' to distance themselves from him, but he's in the same "extreme group" called religious wackos...be they Muslim, Mormon, Mennonite, or Pentacostals...etc. etc.
 
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welsummer; you seem to forget that the good ole' USA was actively participating in a 'selective' breeding program of it's own. Up until the early 80's doctors were still performing forced sterilizations on people. As far as mentally ill.... I guess we just need to wait and see what happens.


I have friends who live in Oslo, thankfully they are all fine and all of their friends are fine.




AW was a train wreck. I am sorry she chose the path she did but the outcome is not unexpected.
 
"Welsummer you seem to forget"

There was absolutely not one single thing in any of my posts on this subject, that even comes close to implying, let alone suggesting that I have forgotten that the USA practiced forced sterilization only a few decades ago.

In fact, I am well aware of America's history in the treatment of mental illness, as it's something I've studied about for over 40 years.

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Yes, actually, I have read it, that manifesto is WHY I think the guy is mentally ill - because I read his manifesto.

The sentences are disjointed and rambling and read exactly like the hundreds of long letters I have from a friend with severe mental illness that went untreated for decades.

Again - here's the problem. Everyone is so morbidly fascinated with the group he's in that they're missing what's really going on.

That and people are so afraid that the presence of a mental disease will mean that he will be found innocent, so they ignore all signs of mental illness and shout down anyone who suggests it.

However, this idea we have that mental disease means someone is going to walk out the door a free man after killing almost 100 people - it's a fantasy.

Don't worry - he is not going to get any special leniency if a mental disease is present.

He is an extremely dangerous person.

I already emailed a friend who's studied Norway's laws in this area - he told me they don't have the death penalty, but that he is very, very sure this guy will never be outside a locked facility the remainder of his life, no matter WHAT mental disease he is adjudged to have.
The fact that several people here said they can't even read it is typical - so is the fact that he copied a good deal of Ted Kosynski's document.
 
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Having spent many years dealing with severely mentally ill people, I can say that the above statement rings untrue to me. It makes it sound like 1.) They are making up stuff 2.) They make a choice not to 'use their brains'.

One fellow I knew said to his doctor, 'But why can't I spot when I'm becoming sicker? Why do I need someone else's help to do that?'

The doctor replied, 'Because the part of your brain that would do that for you - that part of your brain is gone'.

The doctor is right. In severe mental illness, brain tissue is actually lost. On autopsy, you can pick up the brain and visually see the changes in it - with your eye. You don't need a microscope or a fancy scanner. You can pick the brain up in your hand and feel that it is lighter. Brain tissue is actually destroyed.

Actually, what happens is that their brains are damaged by the disease they have, so that they aren't choosing to 'not use their brains', but instead, their brains are profoundly damaged. Their brains don't work properly any more. They aren't making a choice, they are being sick.

The other thing is that the voices don't 'make' people do things. What happens is that there is an essential instability in the brain. Emotions boil up for no reason, impulses jump up out of the brain and people simply DO things. The 'voices' and 'visions' simply ACCOMPANY that unstable behavior. They don't cause it, though to the person themselves, it certainly seems that they are being 'told' to do something. In fact, what is happening is that the brain is so disordered that people just DO things without thinking it over and deciding in the normal way. My friend's brother was happily chatting with him one day, and then he walked over to the edge of their second floor porch and jumped off it and died. He wasn't unhappy, nothing bad had happened, his brain simply misfired, and he simply walked off the 2nd floor porch. People have lept out of windows and run a mile on two broken legs, too.

They just do not 'choose'. Their brain is so disordered that behavior just appears out of nowhere. For absolutely no reason.

I know many people don't like that idea. I think the idea of a person being sick, makes them think of people who CLAIM to be sick to try and avoid responsibility for their actions. And criminals often try to do that - to avoid responsibility for their acts. They don't limit themselves to claims of mental illness, though, they'll try any tactic.

But the problem is, that since their brains are more intact, they are simply unable to reproduce the speech and behavior patterns of a severely mentally ill person. The person who really is mentally ill is so disordered that even the way he composes sentences is affected.

But most of these criminals have a very 'TV Movie' kind of idea of what severe mental illness looks like. Their attempts to mimic severe mental illness are laughable.

What most of the criminals don't realize, is that these severe mental illnesses are accompanied by what's called 'Soft Signs'. These are actual PHYSICAL, neurological symptoms, that an unaffected person simply can't imitate. For schizophrenia there are up to 75 different 'Soft Signs' they may have.

Their eye gaze isn't even normal. THere is am extremely high speed, intermittent jerking of the eye that not even the cleverest person is physically able to imitate.

As long as the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist or counselor), the criminal is extremely unlikely to successfully fool the authorities.

But what these 'Soft Signs' prove, is very important. That brain is very, very damaged. Severely mentally ill people who are violent, are generally going to continue to behave in the same way unless they are kept on medication. The medication does its best to 'balance' the chemical activity in the brain.

However, the severely mentally ill person is not the only type of violent criminal there is.

There are other possibilities.

I don't have enough information yet to understand what this guy is like. However, a SEVERE mental illness is not the only possibility.

In fact, horrible crimes, especially those with loudly stated political motives, can actually be the act of a person with a rather MILD mental disorder. Some of these people look very normal to people. They usually do not have successful close relationships, but they hold down a job, dress neatly and live at least what looks like a fairly normal life.

Their issue is that they have ONE AREA in which their brain does not work normally. No one has proven that this kind of thinking is a 'choice', either. These thinking patterns tend to be extremely persistent and remain there very long term.

They MIGHT eventually progress to more serious mental disease. But quite often, when they commit their crimes, they are in this very strange state where they are not obviously ill, but have one area of their thinking that is extremely irrational.

These people are almost never diagnosed as 'mentally ill'. They MIGHT have periods when they are more ill, and less functional. In that case it may take years for them to act out their plans.

Or, they may always look very 'normal' to others. They may NEVER actually really become severely ill. They may state in this state for all their lives.

For example, some of have met successful businessmen who seem obsessed by one bizarre idea. Such as that their wife is unfaithful. 'Evidence' will be things like, their food tastes too salty, or that when the neighbor drove by their house, he slowed down. That means his wife is having an affair with him, not that he slowed down to plug in his cell phone to the charger, or turn on his CD player.

There tends to be a very bizarre quality to their thinking, but it is strangely limited to only one subject or area of thinking.

In other words, there are outwardly normal looking people who have one area of their thinking that is extremely bizarre and irrational.

THESE people are extremely liable to develop a 'belief system' that can be very, very dangerous.

And the trouble with them, is that the rest of their thinking is sufficiently intact that they can plan very elaborate acts over a long period of time.

They ALSO can recruit others. The intensity of their personality and drive can be so strong that they recruit others to help them. These are generally weak willed people who seem to have virtually no resistance to the person. When they recruit others, or when they get the financial backing of an extremist organization, people often miss that the underlying root of the problem is an area of extremely disordered, irrational thinking.

They get ALLL wrapped up in the beliefs of the organization and totally miss what is really going on.

They often will appear to align themselves with some extreme group, and at least on the surface, they appear to be 'just another one of those guys in that weird group'.

But because they have this flaw in their thinking, this sort of person winds up putting the group's beliefs into action to incredible, unimaginable extremes.

Most extremist organizations LOVE these kinds of people.

Most extremists organization avoid like the plague, anyone who is obviously disfunctional. Those obviously sick, really disorganized people are called 'Loose Cannons' and these organizations work very hard to keep them OUT of their group.

But they LOVE these mildly ill people. These mildly ill guys tend to be somewhat isolated, suspicious of others, and have a single minded purpose that is unbelievable. In other words, they are perfect for the job.

You would think that because they are only dysfunctional in one area of thinking, that the rest of their normal thinking would some how allow them to see that they are crazy in this one area and they would think it through and pull back. But the fact of the matter is that somehow that one area of irrational thinking is so powerful that it shuts out anything else.

They can be relied upon to publicize the beliefs of the organization, but keep any of the chief leaders of the group from taking any risks of harm or criminal convictions.

Ummm, have you read his 1500 page manifesto? The guy knew exactly what he wanted, & trained to do what he did...he wasn't mentally ill, but idelogically ignorant...ignorant to the turths...that god doesn't exisit, & that he was "called" to do what he did..."called" by that same god that he said talked to him...many people will fawn all over the place, tryin' to distance themselves from him, but he's in the same "extreme group" called religious wackos...be they Muslim, Mormon, Mennonite, or Pentacostals...etc. etc.

I agree that he was programmed for sure. However I don't believe that anyone that was functioning normally would systematically kill 76 people over 1.5 hours. Somewhere along the way a normally functioning person would realize what they were doing and would stop it seems.
 
Exactly. That's why most people would say 'the guy is nuts', even though they don't know a thing about mental illness.

A lot of people might sympathize with a group's fundamental political cause, but not their methods. A lot fewer people might be willing to hand out pamphlets. Fewer than THAT may be willing to damage an unoccupied building. But it takes something very different in someone's head to stand there and shoot and kill 100 people.

For several reasons.

First of all, anyone who thinks they can stand there and shoot a bunch of people and escape, or that it will be great is it will allow them to have their day of fame for doing such a brave thing - well - that's an essentially disordered thought.

But too, notice that the idea right now is that he 'worked alone'.

This is very important - the leaders of the group will protect themselves. They'll avoid having anything directly to do with the shooter. It's rare when the law can tie the group leaders to the shooter. On paper, at least, they will be acting as an 'inspiration' only.

And almost always, the leaders of these extremist groups, you'll notice, aren't the ones who go to prison for the rest of their life or get the death penalty.

In other words, these cowards find someone who is just nuts enough to do it, but not nuts enough to tip off the authorities beforehand.

I'd advise people to not be so naive as to think any of these radical groups are trying to make real change for a legitimate social ill they really believe in. I think these groups are far more about power than about real change. I don't think the leaders of these radical groups actually care about the cause they espouse at all.

IF they were about real change, they wouldn't be getting people to shoot people and blow up buildings. These radical groups are about terrorism and having the power to terrify people, pure and simple.

The much more troubling problem is what do you do with someone when you catch them?

Here's the fundamental problem. I've seen a great many people who are as ill as him, or more ill. And they don't shoot 75 or 100 people. They don't shoot anyone.

The research says this is just totally random - which cells in the brain are more damaged, where the disease happens to wander. Not something a person has control over. And that if someone is gullible, or easily led, same thing. Just depends what part of the brain gets toasted the worst.

US law is to some degree, about punishment. And our laws all have a very built in concept, as do laws in most countries - that you don't punish an impaired person who can't help himself - you just keep him contained so he can't hurt anyone again. But most people have never found that satisfactory retribution.

Why? I think it's because they are able to control their OWN behavior, they can't imagine that someone else cannot. So therefore, the person did the crime while in control of his own behavior, and retribution is in order.

The trouble is, how far do you go with this? The Norway shooter is a very rational person. He isn't confused about what reality is. You can't say he didn't know what he was doing. But he clearly is not right in the head.

Basically, in the USA, the way our law is structured, any mental illness the person has, wouldn't be enough of a factor to account for their actions. So like Timothy McVeigh, who didn't seem 100% right in the head if he could be led to blow up a building with hundreds of people, got the death penalty. In other words mental illness isn't always adjudged to be an important factor in a crime.
 
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I think saying this guy is *nuts* makes it more tolerable for others otherwise they realise the truth which is at any time someone could decide to let loose and kill others. I am not sure why this guy decided to kill all these kids,but it seems like people who decide to kill often DO target children. The pain from the murder of children is far worse.
 
I'm reading his manifesto.

Evidently, an awful lot of his anger is actually directed at women.

His mother's divorce, actually, appears to be something he is inordinately angry about. He has an incredible hatred and anger towards women.

You see how the press distorts things? Because he has some association with an anti muslim group, they just glom onto that and go nuts with it.

Y'alls aren't getting a really accurate view of this guy from the media blurbs.

I think the anti muslim group has very, very little to do with this guy's motivation.

Almost invariably, when you see someone go after children, it's because they have taken some fairly normal family events, and knitted together a really insane delusional system around it.

In other words, normal family events become 'delusional material'.

ANYTHING can become delusional material. One delusional guy I knew would walk around muttering over and over, the legal alcohol limit for Rhode Island drivers. Never been to Rhode Island, had no connection to Rhode Island. Another guy used to shout over and over, '4254 Telephone pole!'

Another guy felt there was earthshaking connections between 'BC Comics' and the apocryphal Gospel of Peter. He had stuck copies of pages of the Gospel of Peter into a book of BC comics and then grilled me on why THIS page of the gospel of P. was on THIS page of BC comic. Could I SEE THE CONNECTION? NO? Well then there just is no HELP for me! I'm hopeless, if I can't see something that is SO OBVIOUS.

And religious delusion systems are so common that one of the local shelter coordinators told me that most of them follow an incredibly fixed and set pattern.

IT DOESN'T MATTER. Don't kid yourself, it really, really really does not MATTER WHAT they are delusional about. They can be delusional about ANYTHING. Anything they happen to overhear or read. Anything.

Usually these manifestos consist of just bits and pieces they've overheard here and there. No one needs 1500 pages to say anything that actually makes sense.

And yes, usually, it usually SOUNDS intelligent, and it's very, very common for it to contain Current Events material. Of course. That's what they hear people talking about.

And yes, actually, if you take parts of it it often sounds normal, but you have to read the whole thing to get the real feel for how delusional it is. The way they move from subject to subject, the way they put their ideas together, none of it makes any OVERALL sense. Because it's just bits and scraps floating around in their brain.

As I read the manifesto, it appears to me that he's rather mindlessly copied a lot of rheteoric he's read from a variety of other extremist groups - anti feminism, anti islam, really a mish mash.

Not that he deserves an compassion for coming from a 'broken home' - this is just a really abnormal way to react to a divorce - to make it the center of one's delusional system.

He clearly is mentally ill. Clearly. He pled not guilty because he doesn't feel he did anything wrong.

He wants to have a chance to address the public - the government is not giving him any media access.

He feels that the most important target to hit is - Austria.

WHY. The reasoning behind that choice of target makes absolutely no sense, as well as his reasoning for killing children.

He's clearly mentally ill.

But not in a sense that would result in a not guilty by reason of insanity.

He was not legally 'insane' in the USA law sense of not being aware of what he was doing and the consequences.

The concept of 'insane' is a completely legal one - being mentally ill does not equal insane. In fact most mentally ill people are not 'insane'. 'Insane' is only a legal concept.

He knew that very well,what he was doing. That's why he did what he did.

I really do not think the 'issues' are the main thing here - the crime is the main thing here.

People like this, can just as likely follow one extremist group as another. There's no rhyme or reason to that part of it.
 
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