Norway's Sad Tragedy

[pdsavage]

To me it does not matter what crazy lable he gets he still deserves punishment.To me crazy or not they should get punishment.

They punish dogs/animals and put them down for killing people and they don't understand our laws.So im saying you act like an animal you should get same treatment as any animal that kills people.

 

[Tuppemor]

punk-a-doodle: Thank you for posting that. I didn't really take the time to think about or explain that I was talking about legally sane in correlation with Norwegian law.

Norway is a society aimed at not doing anything motivated out of revenge, which is why we have such lenient laws. People should be rehabilitated and not "punished" per se. I disagree with that sentiment, mostly because of cases like these where the perpetrator is so obviously -never- going to be rehabilitated to a point where anyone would actually feel comfortable having him on the streets.

I am opposed to the death penalty (in this case I think it would be seen as the easy way out in fact), but I think he should at least spend the rest of his life in prison, and I think they should give him a job to do where all proceeds go to the victims and their families, and he should be denied all luxury. Bread and water.

 

[EweSheep]

I've seen the MSN news of the "posh" prisons in Norway, is it for real?????!!!!! I can see as a minimum security prison but hard core maxium prisons, surely NOT!

 

[Tuppemor]

Quote:
The prison in the news is probably Halden, yes it's for real. Most prisons are of course much simpler, but we do have quite a few institutions that remind more of a restricted resort than a prison..

 

[EweSheep]

Quote:
The prison in the news is probably Halden, yes it's for real. Most prisons are of course much simpler, but we do have quite a few institutions that remind more of a restricted resort than a prison..

Would it consider BETTER for prisoners (to be less violent, less combative in closed spaces) to have that simple prison than the ones we have here with steel bars and concrete walls with little or no window access.

 

[Tuppemor]

Quote:
The prison in the news is probably Halden, yes it's for real. Most prisons are of course much simpler, but we do have quite a few institutions that remind more of a restricted resort than a prison..

Would it consider BETTER for prisoners (to be less violent, less combative in closed spaces) to have that simple prison than the ones we have here with steel bars and concrete walls with little or no window access.

I'm not sure I understand the question?
Of course the inmates are better off, but it doesn't really put people off prison sentences. The prisons with a high degree of focus on rehabilitation for long term prisoners are better off this way, they live in mini-communities with certain freedoms and have to work for their priviliges, participating in the community. One of these is Bastøy, an entire island with facilities and jobs. There is agriculture (including sheep, cows and horses), education and work in lumber and carpentry, laundry facilities run by the inmates, a maritime division including a fishing boat, a store run by the inmates, and so forth. It is a community by prisoners for prisoners and it prepares them quite well for a normal life as responsible, law-abiding citizens.

A key part of the Norwegian rehabilitation system is to offer freedom for education, enabling the inmates to spend their time aquiring a foundation to build on when they are released.


All this is well and good, but for the violent criminals who are not simply "stuck in their ways", this is comletely off. Violent and unempathic offenders need -punishment- to deter them or they need to be kept locked up for the safety of others. There are numerous repeat offenders in this group who continue to move in and out of prison due to short sentences for heinous crimes such as rape. We don't have a "three strikes" system either, and we employ wide use of probation time and early release, as the prisons are overcrowded and there is a waiting line for serving time.

 

[EweSheep]

Psychologically I mean.......

When people get into prisons, they just go crazy with those four walls or four barred walls. No windows. Nothing to do except to eat, sleep, play cards, tattoo each other, one hour exercise time and they just literally rot away with no mental stimulation that may need to calm them or be productive, such as workshop or the "hoe" gang (out in the field hoeing out the weeds).

 

[mom'sfolly]

All this arguing about right-wing versus left-wing terrorists being worse is silly, and counter productive. Idiots who become zealots for a cause are horrible no matter what who they are, or what their agenda is. When someone who like Bill O'Reilly says no Christian is a terrorist he is ignoring a whole lot of history, particularly in Ireland. And when someone like Glenn Beck, who supports his own political children's camp, calls the camp attacked "like the Hitler Youth", he is putting his political spin on something that shouldn't be spun, and in some way implying that the attack was justified. This is a monumental tragedy, and making it about politics is sad and wrong.

Do I think Anders Breivik was delusional, yes I do. I also think a whole lot of other people who commit these kind of acts are delusional as well. Are they mentally ill, in most case I think not, at least not in a traditional sense. But this is my opinion. I do feel that people who commit mass murders, terrorist acts and other acts of extreme violence have a very distorted world view, that is mostly opaque to those who don't share their world view. In the case of at least some of these people, it may be a world view that no one else shares. In the case of charismatic leaders, they are able to touch on something that has enough truth, or enough rage that it leads others to share their delusions. It doesn't make their delusional world view anymore real, it merely validates it for them. Jim Jones and Osama bin Laden had very different agendas, but it seems many of their followers end up in the same place; except that bin Laden's followers are pointed outward, and Jones' were directed inward.

 

[EweSheep]

I shudder at the memory of Jim Jones........ugh!

 

[welsummerchicks]

I am curious to find out more about this guy's history. I am not sure which news reports to trust now, but I'll try to see what I can find.

I agree with others who have little faith in rehabilitation for certain people.

I do think rehabilitation can work, but not for someone like the Norway shooter. I think rehabilitation has to start very early, at the first signs of trouble. Once someone has strong bonds in the criminal community, I think rehabilitation is much less likely.

I agree with others who feel that whether mentally ill or not a person who commits a terrible crime needs to be within a locked facility.

I am not big on punishment, because I don't think it works as a deterrent before or after crimes, if it worked I'd be for it, I think it works in a minority of people. But it doesn't seem to work as so many criminals are repeat criminals.

But I am really big on protecting society from people who are never going to respond to any sort of rehabilitation.