Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[BY Bob]

I think there is much misunderstanding about the so called pecking order and like many observations reflects more of the observers view than of the reality of the situation.
Some assume that climbing the pecking order is the natural desire/drive of any chicken. This isn't what the evidence demonstrates. It seems to stem from the belief that chickens are primarily competitive. The evidence doesn't bear this out either.
Stability is what I see as being most important in the chicken world. In all the tribes the most senior in position is the most senior in age. Getting to be senior has very little to do with aggression or competitiveness from what I've seen. Fat bird couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag yet she is undoubtedly the senior hen. She has earned the right to peck at the juniors and nobody challenges this.
Ruffles used to do Fat Birds fighting so this is cooperation rather than competition. If chicken society was as competitive as some would have us believe chickens would have died out long ago. One can imagine in a group of ten hens for example it would be a constnat battle by each individual to get the most food, the best roost position, etc etc. It isn't in fact like that. The level of violence is minimal. The pecks that one sees in many of these confrontations hardly disturb the feathers of the receiver. This should be obvious because if the pecks made contact or were intended to do damage after a nights roost squabbles the hens would end up covered in blood. But, people like to believe what they like to believe despite the evidence.
Even for the lowest ranking chicken, better in the tribe at the bottom than constantly fighting to elevate their position and in extreme conflict, expelled from the tribe. Nobody wants to live with an Attila.
I've written a bit about this in the book. I'll lash up a version and post it.

That would be great. I would love to read that. I'm very interested in why the pecking order does not stay static but rather does move. Especially among hens of the same age group.

 

[BY Bob]

No, I can't let mine sit either & I can't keep a rooster. They have to be stopped for their health imo. I am so interested in what Bob is doing because I have broodies & will probably never see them hatch a clutch. I am so pleased for him that he is able to do it even if just once.

I also cannot have a rooster so the only way this works is if I rehome any boys as soon as I can. I have plans to make this as easy as possible but the best laid plans can blow up. It is one of the reasons she has only 3 eggs. I'm trying to limit my exposure. If this works I may be able to repeat the experience. If not, we we experienced it once.

 

[BY Bob]

Love this!
But don't put pressure on yourself Bob, this is a lovely thread.

Think of it as a bit of a dinner party; you are the fabulous host who welcomes his guests with open arms. We have all come to your 'house' to enjoy good company and the chook chat, and whilst you provide the main 'meals' which we all savour and rave over (rightly so), we fill any gaps with related chat, reminiscences, and a jolly good time.

Cheers to you, sir!

You are very sweet to say so.

I think I might have been having a flashback. In the early days of the internet, I was paid to write a sports column for the local newspaper because all of the regular "paper-based" communists thought it was beneath them to write for the internet. The offseason was the worst trying to come up with reasons for columns.

That was pressure.

This is fun. I treasure this and would very much hate to see it die out. However, I am quickly realizing that there will always be something to talk about as these birds are a constant source of surprises. Add to that everyone else's stories, be they hens on strike, roosters learning and gaining their own hens, or hard molts, there will be plenty to talk about. I am very grateful that you have all chosen to share your stories and photos here. I am blessed to know you all if only virtually.

 

[BY Bob]

Totally agree with that. And sometimes one or other of us contributes a small but delicious side-dish.

Like hens on strike! That story is going to live on!

 

[Shadrach]

It’s been accepted for many years now that the observer influences the outcome of any experiment.

With behavioural studies not only does the observer influence the outcome but they tend to apply value judgements to what they’ve observed and this can be catastrophic to our understanding of behaviour.
One of the things I’ve found fascinating about BYC and also extremely irritating at times is the misinformation spread through applying value judgments and subjective bias to events.

I read with horror that we are all different and chickens are all different and therefore there is no possibility of understanding their behaviour. It usually ends up with “you do what’s best for you in your particular keeping circumstances.” or something along those lines and any notion that behaviour can be predicted and later modified gets overridden by this mantra.

Worse still is despite some compelling evidence these beliefs about behaviour get reinforced and spread until they become like facts, when in fact, many are complete nonsense.
I’ve answered a few questions when a poster has stated that their hens are attacking their rooster. In the case of hens a cockerels this is a likely interpretation but with adults, on the threads I’ve dealt with, something completely different is going on. The observer has misinterpreted what they have seen.

Here is a picture similar to some that have been offered in support of the statement that their hens are bullying, or attacking a rooster.

From here on the threads usually degenerate into various suggests from culling the aggressive hen/s to isolating the rooster for his own protection. Looking at the picture above one could easily be misled into believing this is what is happening if one doesn’t take into account the evidence and rely on on knee jerk emotions.

In the picture is Cillin with his head bowed, unrestrained and Ruffles and Fat Bird are indeed pecking at him but they are grooming him, removing feather quills, scabs and if they are present, parasites.
You can see this behaviour in most stable mixed sex flocks, but the vicious hen myth just rolls on.

Another one that comes up over and over is the myth about the roosters mating dance. Roosters do not dance for their hens. This partly seems to come from a poor understanding of butterfly behaviour where people have seen two or more butterflies spiralling in the air and though, how sweet they’re dancing. They’re not. What they are doing is fighting and the participants are males.
With regard to the ‘rooster dance’ what is being observed is what I call the herding shuffle. It has absolutely nothing to do with mating, or dancing come to that. But, the myth rolls on.

One of the hardest to explain and get accepted is the “my rooster has become aggressive. I used to cuddle him and he was such a sweet boy and now he bites me when I go to pick him up” or something along those lines. Getting bitten by a rooster, open beak grab, is the rooster doing his best to do a mating neck grab on a human. He can’t reach the neck usually and the mating grab is almost unmistakeable. I’ve had a fair few and yes, it can hurt. It’s not aggressive and it’s not his fault. No rooster I haven’t encouraged by my behaviour to believe I am one of the tribe has ever done the mating grab to me. I’ve been pecked, but that is different. A few posts on and the kill the rooster brigade arrive with their badges and the poor rooster is destined for the crock pot by the end of the page. All he was trying to do was get a bit of love.

The egg song is an absolute classic. Somehow the poor hen got seconded to the gender politics war and the egg song became the cry of female fertility. It’s hardly surprising that the evidence suggests that in fact it’s a hen calling for a bit of sex and protection doesn't go down well. There is no doubt about the egg song being an escort call, none.

There are numerous other examples of misinformation being distributed because of ideologies and ignorance being applied to poor observation and lack of critical reasoning. The poor chickens has enough problems without this which could be remedied by a bit of concerted effort on the part of large sites like BYC. Why isn’t this happening?

 

[BY Bob]

Rooster Dance

With regard to the ‘rooster dance’ what is being observed is what I call the herding shuffle. It has absolutely nothing to do with mating, or dancing come to that. But, the myth rolls on.

If you don't mind @Shadrach I'd like to dive into this rooster dance a little more because I have video of Jabberwocky doing his "dance". It seemed to me that he isolated a hen and then, as I called it, "gave her the wing".

Can you explain how this is a herding shuffle? I very much want to understand the behavior here. Why is he doing this?

 

[BY Bob]

It’s been accepted for many years now that the observer influences the outcome of any experiment.

With behavioural studies not only does the observer influence the outcome but they tend to apply value judgements to what they’ve observed and this can be catastrophic to our understanding of behaviour.
One of the things I’ve found fascinating about BYC and also extremely irritating at times is the misinformation spread through applying value judgments and subjective bias to events.

I read with horror that we are all different and chickens are all different and therefore there is no possibility of understanding their behaviour. It usually ends up with “you do what’s best for you in your particular keeping circumstances.” or something along those lines and any notion that behaviour can be predicted and later modified gets overridden by this mantra.

Worse still is despite some compelling evidence these beliefs about behaviour get reinforced and spread until they become like facts, when in fact, many are complete nonsense.
I’ve answered a few questions when a poster has stated that their hens are attacking their rooster. In the case of hens a cockerels this is a likely interpretation but with adults, on the threads I’ve dealt with, something completely different is going on. The observer has misinterpreted what they have seen.

Here is a picture similar to some that have been offered in support of the statement that their hens are bullying, or attacking a rooster.
View attachment 2169664

From here on the threads usually degenerate into various suggests from culling the aggressive hen/s to isolating the rooster for his own protection. Looking at the picture above one could easily be misled into believing this is what is happening if one doesn’t take into account the evidence and rely on on knee jerk emotions.

In the picture is Cillin with his head bowed, unrestrained and Ruffles and Fat Bird are indeed pecking at him but they are grooming him, removing feather quills, scabs and if they are present, parasites.
You can see this behaviour in most stable mixed sex flocks, but the vicious hen myth just rolls on.

Another one that comes up over and over is the myth about the roosters mating dance. Roosters do not dance for their hens. This partly seems to come from a poor understanding of butterfly behaviour where people have seen two or more butterflies spiralling in the air and though, how sweet they’re dancing. They’re not. What they are doing is fighting and the participants are males.
With regard to the ‘rooster dance’ what is being observed is what I call the herding shuffle. It has absolutely nothing to do with mating, or dancing come to that. But, the myth rolls on.

One of the hardest to explain and get accepted is the “my rooster has become aggressive. I used to cuddle him and he was such a sweet boy and now he bites me when I go to pick him up” or something along those lines. Getting bitten by a rooster, open beak grab, is the rooster doing his best to do a mating neck grab on a human. He can’t reach the neck usually and the mating grab is almost unmistakeable. I’ve had a fair few and yes, it can hurt. It’s not aggressive and it’s not his fault. No rooster I haven’t encouraged by my behaviour to believe I am one of the tribe has ever done the mating grab to me. I’ve been pecked, but that is different. A few posts on and the kill the rooster brigade arrive with their badges and the poor rooster is destined for the crock pot by the end of the page. All he was trying to do was get a bit of love.

The egg song is an absolute classic. Somehow the poor hen got seconded to the gender politics war and the egg song became the cry of female fertility. It’s hardly surprising that the evidence suggests that in fact it’s a hen calling for a bit of sex and protection doesn't go down well. There is no doubt about the egg song being an escort call, none.

There are numerous other examples of misinformation being distributed because of ideologies and ignorance being applied to poor observation and lack of critical reasoning. The poor chickens has enough problems without this which could be remedied by a bit of concerted effort on the part of large sites like BYC. Why isn’t this happening?

My impression of this site is that it is more of a social site than an educational site. They are not actively policing the conversation nor are they taking all of the observational data available here to try advance the understanding of chicken behavior. It is a place to come and talk about your chickens.

You can get some good advice here from experienced chicken owners. You do have to be careful. I will say the advice I was able to get here has saved hens. Especially as I have no vet access. We here are very lucky that you personally have shown up and joined us. We are now able to tap into you vast experience in studying their behaviors. I believe we will all be better managers of our flocks because of it.

Back to the answer of your question. Always remember this site exists to make money. If it was truly about backyard chickens people with flocks numbering in the hundreds would not be on here but they are. If the owners were to alienate any group by promoting ideas that run contrary to any groups point of view they would lose revenue. So they let the conversations go how they will and only interfere when it someone reports something out of control or offensive.

In short, after I have rambled in and on, It is a social site, not a scientific site.

That is how I see it, my opinion. Of course, they may not agree.

 

[RoyalChick]

Here is a picture similar to some that have been offered in support of the statement that their hens are bullying, or attacking a rooster.
View attachment 2169664

From here on the threads usually degenerate into various suggests from culling the aggressive hen/s to isolating the rooster for his own protection. Looking at the picture above one could easily be misled into believing this is what is happening if one doesn’t take into account the evidence and rely on on knee jerk emotions.

In the picture is Cillin with his head bowed, unrestrained and Ruffles and Fat Bird are indeed pecking at him but they are grooming him, removing feather quills, scabs and if they are present, parasites.
You can see this behaviour in most stable mixed sex flocks, but the vicious hen myth just rolls on.

All I can say to this is lucky Cillin!

 

[RoyalChick]

My impression of this site is that it is more of a social site than an educational site. They are not actively policing the conversation nor are they taking all of the observational data available here to try advance the understanding of chicken behavior. It is a place to come and talk about your chickens.

You can get some good advice here from experienced chicken owners. You do have to be careful. I will say the advice I was able to get here has saved hens. Especially as I have no vet access. We here are very lucky that you personally have shown up and joined us. We are now able to tap into you vast experience in studying their behaviors. I believe we will all be better managers of our flocks because of it.

Back to the answer of your question. Always remember this site exists to make money. If it was truly about backyard chickens people with flocks numbering in the hundreds would not be on here but they are. If the owners were to alienate any group by promoting ideas that run contrary to any groups point of view they would lose revenue. So they let the conversations go how they will and only interfere when it someone reports something out of control or offensive.
In short, after I have rambled in and on, It is a social site, not a scientific site.
That is how I see it, my opinion. Of course, they may not agree.

I agree and would go further, it is a forum - a place to meet like a market square - neutral by definition and only intervening to keep things civil. We make of it what we make of it.
I personally love the combination of fun chicken sharing with genuine advice from the more experienced folk like @Shadrach that you have created for us on this thread and the other 3 that are sort of connected to it by all of us. I rarely look at anything other than these 4 threads.

 

[GhislaineDel]

I have read this thread on and off for a while. I am not sure if I have participated before, partly because I don't have chickens, yet. (The incubator is running with chicken eggs, and I have raised ducks, quail, and guinea fowl.)

I enjoy this thread because of the different perspectives here. There's BY Bob with his small hen only city type flock, Shadrach with his free ranging country tribes, and all the other participants with their perspectives from their particular circumstances. It's awesome that everyone here is learning from each other's flocks!