Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[featherhead007]

Dakota why? I was sitting in the coop, and Dakota jumped up on my lap, then up on my shoulder and then she hopped up on my head. After all that, she jumped up on her perch. I’m guessing that she used me as a ladder. Oops, I’m in Jaffar’s spot, I better move.

 

[featherhead007]

It’s total mayhem in the coop tonight.
Jaffar isn’t doing anything about it. Dog gon it, a perch is a perch, settle down ladies!!!

 

[BY Bob]

Well I don’t have any beware of chicken signage but I made a joke about this sign back in 2019 and DH got it for me that Christmas…
View attachment 3056336

He also brought this sad slightly frozen aloe home recently… I’m not sure if I can save it, but I’m going to try.View attachment 3056333

You can do it! It has some life left!

 

[bgmathteach]

Thank you.
Well, flax seed meal is listed just ahead of the black soldier fly grubs in the Scratch and Peck. Hmmm! What do you think of that? I may try it anyway, as I do want to switch to something.

On this fatty liver disease issue. I thought I'd quote the relevant posts, but they aren't there now. I don't know much, but the little reading about the human condition - when not alcohol related, it sounds like a metabolic issue (comes along with other conditions present, i.e., insulin-resistance), and without always very well known causes for these given other conditions, these metabolic issues. And the chicken-related stuff sounds similar, as in too much carbohydrate calories - that ratio between energy and protein quote @bgmathteach posted...

So I do wonder about estrogen-inducing things which affect metabolism such as soy, but also chemicals around us and in our foods such as bisphenols (BP-A, BP-S, etc.) which (according to a radio report I just heard) appears to affect fetal lung development, more in girls than boys. These I suspect may have an affect on metabolism also, either through the effects in development or through exposure later in life. Also phthalates seem to disrupt metabolism. No amount of good chicken-keeping can prevent what's already happened to a chick or it's mother in egg formation (@micstrachan take note) if there's been exposure...

All - Does it make you consider that the better calories for chickens might be essentially a low-carb diet? Protein & fat based, at least in higher percentages to carbohydrates, than is found in traditional corn-based feed? So protein from peas - another area non-soy feeds are turning to - might be okay IF one accounts for the carbs there too?

Finally, and sorry for the long post, @Ponypoor 's posts on founder in horses also made me wonder if a diet that is supplemented with a lot of high-saccharride greens might actually not be good for chickens? That they really need to be foraging for proteins and fats, in insects and grains, and only nibble a bit on the beautiful clovers and flower leaves? So does cabbage have a lot of sugars in it? What about collards, my current favorite greens treats for the chickens?

Note that clovers and other greens really only have the high sugar content during cold periods (i.e. spring when overnight temps are low, but enough sun/warmth during day for them to be growing and utilizing the sun, not ALL the time.

That said, I agree with the corn (and soy) issue.

I wish I could find a study I read a few years ago about PCOS study in chickens. 20% of 5 or older (hens) had PCOS!

I also wish I knew more about nutrition and Anatomy & Physiology in general...and about chickens specifically.....I sometimes feel so inadequate for my girls (& boys, I just call them all my 'girls)

@ChicoryBlue FYI I mix grower & layer because I can only find a soy free layer locally....but I have mixed flock, so need to cut the calcium...but I can't find any organic soy free grower nor all flock around here....and with 80+ birds, I could never afford to feed 100% Scratch & Peck.

 

[ChicoryBlue]

Yes I think you are right. Let me try and summarize what I have learned having spent a few hours deep in academic articles. Hope it helps everyone. The disease is called FLHS (Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome) and I am only talking about chickens not people.

FLHS is a metabolic disease related to how the chicken metabolizes carbohydrate and fat. Like most metabolic diseases it is very multifactorial with the main factors generally recognized as contributing to it being:

• Genetics - particularly high production breeds as well as age of chicken and time of year. Basically it is associated with high laying so 'peak production' is often what stimulates the fatal event. This is where the link to estrogen comes from and why some have the hypothesis that a diet low in soy would be best. There is no experimental evidence that soy causes FLHS, but many want to reduce the use of soy for other reasons (bad for the environment, GMO etc.)
• Temperature and stress - both seem to be triggering factors
• Low exercise - this may be independent of obesity - like running around is good in its own right
• High calorie diet, particularly when the calories are mainly from carbohydrate

Several papers believe it should be renamed as Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome because not all of the cases have fatty liver or are obese.

The role of flax is poorly understood. There are papers that suggest it protects against FLHS and others that suggest it doesn't and one that suggests it is harmful. The source that said it was harmful was not a peer reviewed journal so I am now thinking maybe flax is just fine (or it is unknown). Sorry to introduce the flax red herring!

Beyond Flax which is a puzzle, the interventions that have been shown to be helpful are:

• Exercise and not over-feeding
• A diet where a lot of calories come from protein and fat
• A diet which includes Selenium - farms with multiple cases of FLHS are recommended to supplement feed with selenium. Diary like yoghurt and cottage cheese are good dietary sources of selenium
• A diet that is rich in lutein - again this can be supplemented - but comes from leafy greens like kale
• A diet that is rich in choline - corn is low in choline, wheat, barley, oats and oilseeds have more choline

Putting this all together the Scratch and Peck feed does look like it is scientifically better for FLHS than many of the others.

Phew! I really should not have read so many papers. My brain hurts!

One tidbit I picked up for @micstrachan is that FLHS is the most common cause of death in backyard flocks in Northern California!

I am going to give the Scratch and Peck food a try, but it is very costly so I may do a mix and just try and give them more meat and introduce kale on a regular basis.

Edit: Sorry folk for long post - I didn't source all the papers I read - I started reading and didn't keep track - I read about 15 papers - if anyone really wants to dig through them I can probably figure out what I read from my browser history.

This is a great job summarizing what you've read, I think it is very helpful, thank you! I would like to understand better what roles choline, selenium and lutein play.

Since the liver stores glycogen (along with the muscles), when one exercises, that activity demands the conversion of that stored stuff in those parts into energy the body can use. And then they get replenished later. So it seems to me logical that regularly making that conversion and reconversion system "work" (regardless of obesity level) might be a good idea in helping to keep everything functioning normally. Stress and temperature could easily be disruptive to digestion & metabolism as the body tries to remain at an ideal temperature & even keel, and bad genetics just plain terrible for it. How the kind of calorie makes a difference is interesting, and I have no clue, except that what the digestive system does to deal with each type must be different?

 

[lightm]

Well I managed to keep Rosie out for at least 2 hours today, not sure exactly. The last half hour involved a lot of whining and the occasional tug on my pant leg, but good over all.
Rosie and Brenna got in some good bath napping
View attachment 2688847

They are obviously philosophers:

 

[BY Bob]

They seem to have a lot to talk about - they go on like that from dawn to after dark with a couple of nap-breaks.

Much like Sylvie. She was so chatty.

 

[BY Bob]

We're happy to have you back. I don't know about forgiven though...

I forgave her instantly. Just speaking for me mind you.

 

[bgmathteach]

Yes I think you are right. Let me try and summarize what I have learned having spent a few hours deep in academic articles. Hope it helps everyone. The disease is called FLHS (Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome) and I am only talking about chickens not people.

FLHS is a metabolic disease related to how the chicken metabolizes carbohydrate and fat. Like most metabolic diseases it is very multifactorial with the main factors generally recognized as contributing to it being:

• Genetics - particularly high production breeds as well as age of chicken and time of year. Basically it is associated with high laying so 'peak production' is often what stimulates the fatal event. This is where the link to estrogen comes from and why some have the hypothesis that a diet low in soy would be best. There is no experimental evidence that soy causes FLHS, but many want to reduce the use of soy for other reasons (bad for the environment, GMO etc.)
• Temperature and stress - both seem to be triggering factors
• Low exercise - this may be independent of obesity - like running around is good in its own right
• High calorie diet, particularly when the calories are mainly from carbohydrate

Several papers believe it should be renamed as Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome because not all of the cases have fatty liver or are obese.

The role of flax is poorly understood. There are papers that suggest it protects against FLHS and others that suggest it doesn't and one that suggests it is harmful. The source that said it was harmful was not a peer reviewed journal so I am now thinking maybe flax is just fine (or it is unknown). Sorry to introduce the flax red herring!

Beyond Flax which is a puzzle, the interventions that have been shown to be helpful are:

• Exercise and not over-feeding
• A diet where a lot of calories come from protein and fat
• A diet which includes Selenium - farms with multiple cases of FLHS are recommended to supplement feed with selenium. Diary like yoghurt and cottage cheese are good dietary sources of selenium
• A diet that is rich in lutein - again this can be supplemented - but comes from leafy greens like kale
• A diet that is rich in choline - corn is low in choline, wheat, barley, oats and oilseeds have more choline

Putting this all together the Scratch and Peck feed does look like it is scientifically better for FLHS than many of the others.

Phew! I really should not have read so many papers. My brain hurts!

One tidbit I picked up for @micstrachan is that FLHS is the most common cause of death in backyard flocks in Northern California!

I am going to give the Scratch and Peck food a try, but it is very costly so I may do a mix and just try and give them more meat and introduce kale on a regular basis.

Edit: Sorry folk for long post - I didn't source all the papers I read - I started reading and didn't keep track - I read about 15 papers - if anyone really wants to dig through them I can probably figure out what I read from my browser history.

Thank you so much for this. I feel SO marginally informed and a bit at a loss as to what to do to improve my hen's health. This has helped somewhat...it was VERY informative...but I still feel like I am so out of my league!

 

[MaryJanet]

Yes I think you are right. Let me try and summarize what I have learned having spent a few hours deep in academic articles. Hope it helps everyone. The disease is called FLHS (Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome) and I am only talking about chickens not people.

FLHS is a metabolic disease related to how the chicken metabolizes carbohydrate and fat. Like most metabolic diseases it is very multifactorial with the main factors generally recognized as contributing to it being:

• Genetics - particularly high production breeds as well as age of chicken and time of year. Basically it is associated with high laying so 'peak production' is often what stimulates the fatal event. This is where the link to estrogen comes from and why some have the hypothesis that a diet low in soy would be best. There is no experimental evidence that soy causes FLHS, but many want to reduce the use of soy for other reasons (bad for the environment, GMO etc.)
• Temperature and stress - both seem to be triggering factors
• Low exercise - this may be independent of obesity - like running around is good in its own right
• High calorie diet, particularly when the calories are mainly from carbohydrate

Several papers believe it should be renamed as Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome because not all of the cases have fatty liver or are obese.

The role of flax is poorly understood. There are papers that suggest it protects against FLHS and others that suggest it doesn't and one that suggests it is harmful. The source that said it was harmful was not a peer reviewed journal so I am now thinking maybe flax is just fine (or it is unknown). Sorry to introduce the flax red herring!

Beyond Flax which is a puzzle, the interventions that have been shown to be helpful are:

• Exercise and not over-feeding
• A diet where a lot of calories come from protein and fat
• A diet which includes Selenium - farms with multiple cases of FLHS are recommended to supplement feed with selenium. Diary like yoghurt and cottage cheese are good dietary sources of selenium
• A diet that is rich in lutein - again this can be supplemented - but comes from leafy greens like kale
• A diet that is rich in choline - corn is low in choline, wheat, barley, oats and oilseeds have more choline

Putting this all together the Scratch and Peck feed does look like it is scientifically better for FLHS than many of the others.

Phew! I really should not have read so many papers. My brain hurts!

One tidbit I picked up for @micstrachan is that FLHS is the most common cause of death in backyard flocks in Northern California!

I am going to give the Scratch and Peck food a try, but it is very costly so I may do a mix and just try and give them more meat and introduce kale on a regular basis.

Edit: Sorry folk for long post - I didn't source all the papers I read - I started reading and didn't keep track - I read about 15 papers - if anyone really wants to dig through them I can probably figure out what I read from my browser history.

Brilliant post!! Thanks for spending that time and writing it up RC!

It explains why Mark the vet was so keen on supplementing Peggy's diet with choline.

If anyone is interested, Peggy was diagnosed with FLHS surgically, as in the vet opened her up and took a look. There's no doubt at all that she has FLHS
That was 18 months ago. Today, she thrives (apart from moulting but that's unrelated).

Mark (the vet) prescribed pellets with high protein, which have adequate selenium too. To be supplemented with

• Choline
• Biotin
• DMG
• Milk thistle
• Cottage cheese
• Enzymes Probiotics

I haven't missed a day of providing supplements, except when I let her try a hatch. It was not a wise decision in terms of her diet and I won't be allowing her to sit in future.

Anyway, if anyone's hens are confirmed as having FLHS, maybe try that supplement regime. There's no harm in the other hens having those supplements.

Cutting fat isn't always the right answer.