Does Norway approve the death penalty for him?
Norway's Sad Tragedy
- Thread starter welsummerchicks
- Start date
Quote:
I doubt it.
I doubt it.
Quote:
It's good they do that. We learned a serious lesson about what fertilizer can be used for here. Good thing Canada is on top of it.
US is to. Might not be as storng handed as Canada.
Oslolow held a servince today? (like when ever there morining was).
Apperentley he's going to "Explain" in court.... He's a nut
only 32 years old.
And yes i think i am the only teenager that would rather watch the news then a movie
It's good they do that. We learned a serious lesson about what fertilizer can be used for here. Good thing Canada is on top of it.
US is to. Might not be as storng handed as Canada.
Oslolow held a servince today? (like when ever there morining was).
Apperentley he's going to "Explain" in court.... He's a nut
only 32 years old.
And yes i think i am the only teenager that would rather watch the news then a movie
- Thread starter
- #25
- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
- 4
- 171
Quote:
Having spent many years dealing with severely mentally ill people, I can say that the above statement rings untrue to me. It makes it sound like 1.) They are making up stuff 2.) They make a choice not to 'use their brains'.
One fellow I knew said to his doctor, 'But why can't I spot when I'm becoming sicker? Why do I need someone else's help to do that?'
The doctor replied, 'Because the part of your brain that would do that for you - that part of your brain is gone'.
The doctor is right. In severe mental illness, brain tissue is actually lost. On autopsy, you can pick up the brain and visually see the changes in it - with your eye. You don't need a microscope or a fancy scanner. You can pick the brain up in your hand and feel that it is lighter. Brain tissue is actually destroyed.
Actually, what happens is that their brains are damaged by the disease they have, so that they aren't choosing to 'not use their brains', but instead, their brains are profoundly damaged. Their brains don't work properly any more. They aren't making a choice, they are being sick.
The other thing is that the voices don't 'make' people do things. What happens is that there is an essential instability in the brain. Emotions boil up for no reason, impulses jump up out of the brain and people simply DO things. The 'voices' and 'visions' simply ACCOMPANY that unstable behavior. They don't cause it, though to the person themselves, it certainly seems that they are being 'told' to do something. In fact, what is happening is that the brain is so disordered that people just DO things without thinking it over and deciding in the normal way. My friend's brother was happily chatting with him one day, and then he walked over to the edge of their second floor porch and jumped off it and died. He wasn't unhappy, nothing bad had happened, his brain simply misfired, and he simply walked off the 2nd floor porch. People have lept out of windows and run a mile on two broken legs, too.
They just do not 'choose'. Their brain is so disordered that behavior just appears out of nowhere. For absolutely no reason.
I know many people don't like that idea. I think the idea of a person being sick, makes them think of people who CLAIM to be sick to try and avoid responsibility for their actions. And criminals often try to do that - to avoid responsibility for their acts. They don't limit themselves to claims of mental illness, though, they'll try any tactic.
But the problem is, that since their brains are more intact, they are simply unable to reproduce the speech and behavior patterns of a severely mentally ill person. The person who really is mentally ill is so disordered that even the way he composes sentences is affected.
But most of these criminals have a very 'TV Movie' kind of idea of what severe mental illness looks like. Their attempts to mimic severe mental illness are laughable.
What most of the criminals don't realize, is that these severe mental illnesses are accompanied by what's called 'Soft Signs'. These are actual PHYSICAL, neurological symptoms, that an unaffected person simply can't imitate. For schizophrenia there are up to 75 different 'Soft Signs' they may have.
Their eye gaze isn't even normal. THere is am extremely high speed, intermittent jerking of the eye that not even the cleverest person is physically able to imitate.
As long as the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist or counselor), the criminal is extremely unlikely to successfully fool the authorities.
But what these 'Soft Signs' prove, is very important. That brain is very, very damaged. Severely mentally ill people who are violent, are generally going to continue to behave in the same way unless they are kept on medication. The medication does its best to 'balance' the chemical activity in the brain.
However, the severely mentally ill person is not the only type of violent criminal there is.
There are other possibilities.
I don't have enough information yet to understand what this guy is like. However, a SEVERE mental illness is not the only possibility.
In fact, horrible crimes, especially those with loudly stated political motives, can actually be the act of a person with a rather MILD mental disorder. Some of these people look very normal to people. They usually do not have successful close relationships, but they hold down a job, dress neatly and live at least what looks like a fairly normal life.
Their issue is that they have ONE AREA in which their brain does not work normally. No one has proven that this kind of thinking is a 'choice', either. These thinking patterns tend to be extremely persistent and remain there very long term.
They MIGHT eventually progress to more serious mental disease. But quite often, when they commit their crimes, they are in this very strange state where they are not obviously ill, but have one area of their thinking that is extremely irrational.
These people are almost never diagnosed as 'mentally ill'. They MIGHT have periods when they are more ill, and less functional. In that case it may take years for them to act out their plans.
Or, they may always look very 'normal' to others. They may NEVER actually really become severely ill. They may state in this state for all their lives.
For example, some of have met successful businessmen who seem obsessed by one bizarre idea. Such as that their wife is unfaithful. 'Evidence' will be things like, their food tastes too salty, or that when the neighbor drove by their house, he slowed down. That means his wife is having an affair with him, not that he slowed down to plug in his cell phone to the charger, or turn on his CD player.
There tends to be a very bizarre quality to their thinking, but it is strangely limited to only one subject or area of thinking.
In other words, there are outwardly normal looking people who have one area of their thinking that is extremely bizarre and irrational.
THESE people are extremely liable to develop a 'belief system' that can be very, very dangerous.
And the trouble with them, is that the rest of their thinking is sufficiently intact that they can plan very elaborate acts over a long period of time.
They ALSO can recruit others. The intensity of their personality and drive can be so strong that they recruit others to help them. These are generally weak willed people who seem to have virtually no resistance to the person. When they recruit others, or when they get the financial backing of an extremist organization, people often miss that the underlying root of the problem is an area of extremely disordered, irrational thinking.
They get ALLL wrapped up in the beliefs of the organization and totally miss what is really going on.
They often will appear to align themselves with some extreme group, and at least on the surface, they appear to be 'just another one of those guys in that weird group'.
But because they have this flaw in their thinking, this sort of person winds up putting the group's beliefs into action to incredible, unimaginable extremes.
Most extremist organizations LOVE these kinds of people.
Most extremists organization avoid like the plague, anyone who is obviously disfunctional. Those obviously sick, really disorganized people are called 'Loose Cannons' and these organizations work very hard to keep them OUT of their group.
But they LOVE these mildly ill people. These mildly ill guys tend to be somewhat isolated, suspicious of others, and have a single minded purpose that is unbelievable. In other words, they are perfect for the job.
You would think that because they are only dysfunctional in one area of thinking, that the rest of their normal thinking would some how allow them to see that they are crazy in this one area and they would think it through and pull back. But the fact of the matter is that somehow that one area of irrational thinking is so powerful that it shuts out anything else.
They can be relied upon to publicize the beliefs of the organization, but keep any of the chief leaders of the group from taking any risks of harm or criminal convictions.
Having spent many years dealing with severely mentally ill people, I can say that the above statement rings untrue to me. It makes it sound like 1.) They are making up stuff 2.) They make a choice not to 'use their brains'.
One fellow I knew said to his doctor, 'But why can't I spot when I'm becoming sicker? Why do I need someone else's help to do that?'
The doctor replied, 'Because the part of your brain that would do that for you - that part of your brain is gone'.
The doctor is right. In severe mental illness, brain tissue is actually lost. On autopsy, you can pick up the brain and visually see the changes in it - with your eye. You don't need a microscope or a fancy scanner. You can pick the brain up in your hand and feel that it is lighter. Brain tissue is actually destroyed.
Actually, what happens is that their brains are damaged by the disease they have, so that they aren't choosing to 'not use their brains', but instead, their brains are profoundly damaged. Their brains don't work properly any more. They aren't making a choice, they are being sick.
The other thing is that the voices don't 'make' people do things. What happens is that there is an essential instability in the brain. Emotions boil up for no reason, impulses jump up out of the brain and people simply DO things. The 'voices' and 'visions' simply ACCOMPANY that unstable behavior. They don't cause it, though to the person themselves, it certainly seems that they are being 'told' to do something. In fact, what is happening is that the brain is so disordered that people just DO things without thinking it over and deciding in the normal way. My friend's brother was happily chatting with him one day, and then he walked over to the edge of their second floor porch and jumped off it and died. He wasn't unhappy, nothing bad had happened, his brain simply misfired, and he simply walked off the 2nd floor porch. People have lept out of windows and run a mile on two broken legs, too.
They just do not 'choose'. Their brain is so disordered that behavior just appears out of nowhere. For absolutely no reason.
I know many people don't like that idea. I think the idea of a person being sick, makes them think of people who CLAIM to be sick to try and avoid responsibility for their actions. And criminals often try to do that - to avoid responsibility for their acts. They don't limit themselves to claims of mental illness, though, they'll try any tactic.
But the problem is, that since their brains are more intact, they are simply unable to reproduce the speech and behavior patterns of a severely mentally ill person. The person who really is mentally ill is so disordered that even the way he composes sentences is affected.
But most of these criminals have a very 'TV Movie' kind of idea of what severe mental illness looks like. Their attempts to mimic severe mental illness are laughable.
What most of the criminals don't realize, is that these severe mental illnesses are accompanied by what's called 'Soft Signs'. These are actual PHYSICAL, neurological symptoms, that an unaffected person simply can't imitate. For schizophrenia there are up to 75 different 'Soft Signs' they may have.
Their eye gaze isn't even normal. THere is am extremely high speed, intermittent jerking of the eye that not even the cleverest person is physically able to imitate.
As long as the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist or counselor), the criminal is extremely unlikely to successfully fool the authorities.
But what these 'Soft Signs' prove, is very important. That brain is very, very damaged. Severely mentally ill people who are violent, are generally going to continue to behave in the same way unless they are kept on medication. The medication does its best to 'balance' the chemical activity in the brain.
However, the severely mentally ill person is not the only type of violent criminal there is.
There are other possibilities.
I don't have enough information yet to understand what this guy is like. However, a SEVERE mental illness is not the only possibility.
In fact, horrible crimes, especially those with loudly stated political motives, can actually be the act of a person with a rather MILD mental disorder. Some of these people look very normal to people. They usually do not have successful close relationships, but they hold down a job, dress neatly and live at least what looks like a fairly normal life.
Their issue is that they have ONE AREA in which their brain does not work normally. No one has proven that this kind of thinking is a 'choice', either. These thinking patterns tend to be extremely persistent and remain there very long term.
They MIGHT eventually progress to more serious mental disease. But quite often, when they commit their crimes, they are in this very strange state where they are not obviously ill, but have one area of their thinking that is extremely irrational.
These people are almost never diagnosed as 'mentally ill'. They MIGHT have periods when they are more ill, and less functional. In that case it may take years for them to act out their plans.
Or, they may always look very 'normal' to others. They may NEVER actually really become severely ill. They may state in this state for all their lives.
For example, some of have met successful businessmen who seem obsessed by one bizarre idea. Such as that their wife is unfaithful. 'Evidence' will be things like, their food tastes too salty, or that when the neighbor drove by their house, he slowed down. That means his wife is having an affair with him, not that he slowed down to plug in his cell phone to the charger, or turn on his CD player.
There tends to be a very bizarre quality to their thinking, but it is strangely limited to only one subject or area of thinking.
In other words, there are outwardly normal looking people who have one area of their thinking that is extremely bizarre and irrational.
THESE people are extremely liable to develop a 'belief system' that can be very, very dangerous.
And the trouble with them, is that the rest of their thinking is sufficiently intact that they can plan very elaborate acts over a long period of time.
They ALSO can recruit others. The intensity of their personality and drive can be so strong that they recruit others to help them. These are generally weak willed people who seem to have virtually no resistance to the person. When they recruit others, or when they get the financial backing of an extremist organization, people often miss that the underlying root of the problem is an area of extremely disordered, irrational thinking.
They get ALLL wrapped up in the beliefs of the organization and totally miss what is really going on.
They often will appear to align themselves with some extreme group, and at least on the surface, they appear to be 'just another one of those guys in that weird group'.
But because they have this flaw in their thinking, this sort of person winds up putting the group's beliefs into action to incredible, unimaginable extremes.
Most extremist organizations LOVE these kinds of people.
Most extremists organization avoid like the plague, anyone who is obviously disfunctional. Those obviously sick, really disorganized people are called 'Loose Cannons' and these organizations work very hard to keep them OUT of their group.
But they LOVE these mildly ill people. These mildly ill guys tend to be somewhat isolated, suspicious of others, and have a single minded purpose that is unbelievable. In other words, they are perfect for the job.
You would think that because they are only dysfunctional in one area of thinking, that the rest of their normal thinking would some how allow them to see that they are crazy in this one area and they would think it through and pull back. But the fact of the matter is that somehow that one area of irrational thinking is so powerful that it shuts out anything else.
They can be relied upon to publicize the beliefs of the organization, but keep any of the chief leaders of the group from taking any risks of harm or criminal convictions.
Last edited:
Quote:
Having spent many years dealing with severely mentally ill people, I can say that the above statement rings untrue to me. It makes it sound like 1.) They are making up stuff 2.) They make a choice not to 'use their brains'.
One fellow I knew said to his doctor, 'But why can't I spot when I'm becoming sicker? Why do I need someone else's help to do that?'
The doctor replied, 'Because the part of your brain that would do that for you - that part of your brain is gone'.
The doctor is right. In severe mental illness, brain tissue is actually lost. On autopsy, you can pick up the brain and visually see the changes in it - with your eye. You don't need a microscope or a fancy scanner. You can pick the brain up in your hand and feel that it is lighter. Brain tissue is actually destroyed.
Actually, what happens is that their brains are damaged by the disease they have, so that they aren't choosing to 'not use their brains', but instead, their brains are profoundly damaged. Their brains don't work properly any more. They aren't making a choice, they are being sick.
The other thing is that the voices don't 'make' people do things. What happens is that there is an essential instability in the brain. Emotions boil up for no reason, impulses jump up out of the brain and people simply DO things. The 'voices' and 'visions' simply ACCOMPANY that unstable behavior. They don't cause it, though to the person themselves, it certainly seems that they are being 'told' to do something. In fact, what is happening is that the brain is so disordered that people just DO things without thinking it over and deciding in the normal way. My friend's brother was happily chatting with him one day, and then he walked over to the edge of their second floor porch and jumped off it and died. He wasn't unhappy, nothing bad had happened, his brain simply misfired, and he simply walked off the 2nd floor porch. People have lept out of windows and run a mile on two broken legs, too.
They just do not 'choose'. Their brain is so disordered that behavior just appears out of nowhere. For absolutely no reason.
I know many people don't like that idea. I think the idea of a person being sick, makes them think of people who CLAIM to be sick to try and avoid responsibility for their actions. And criminals often try to do that - to avoid responsibility for their acts. They don't limit themselves to claims of mental illness, though, they'll try any tactic.
But the problem is, that since their brains are more intact, they are simply unable to reproduce the speech and behavior patterns of a severely mentally ill person. The person who really is mentally ill is so disordered that even the way he composes sentences is affected.
But most of these criminals have a very 'TV Movie' kind of idea of what severe mental illness looks like. Their attempts to mimic severe mental illness are laughable.
What most of the criminals don't realize, is that these severe mental illnesses are accompanied by what's called 'Soft Signs'. These are actual PHYSICAL, neurological symptoms, that an unaffected person simply can't imitate. For schizophrenia there are up to 75 different 'Soft Signs' they may have.
Their eye gaze isn't even normal. THere is am extremely high speed, intermittent jerking of the eye that not even the cleverest person is physically able to imitate.
As long as the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist or counselor), the criminal is extremely unlikely to successfully fool the authorities.
But what these 'Soft Signs' prove, is very important. That brain is very, very damaged. Severely mentally ill people who are violent, are generally going to continue to behave in the same way unless they are kept on medication. The medication does its best to 'balance' the chemical activity in the brain.
However, the severely mentally ill person is not the only type of violent criminal there is.
There are other possibilities.
I don't have enough information yet to understand what this guy is like. However, a SEVERE mental illness is not the only possibility.
In fact, horrible crimes, especially those with loudly stated political motives, can actually be the act of a person with a rather MILD mental disorder. Some of these people look very normal to people. They usually do not have successful close relationships, but they hold down a job, dress neatly and live at least what looks like a fairly normal life.
Their issue is that they have ONE AREA in which their brain does not work normally. No one has proven that this kind of thinking is a 'choice', either. These thinking patterns tend to be extremely persistent and remain there very long term.
They MIGHT eventually progress to more serious mental disease. But quite often, when they commit their crimes, they are in this very strange state where they are not obviously ill, but have one area of their thinking that is extremely irrational.
These people are almost never diagnosed as 'mentally ill'. They MIGHT have periods when they are more ill, and less functional. In that case it may take years for them to act out their plans.
Or, they may always look very 'normal' to others. They may NEVER actually really become severely ill. They may state in this state for all their lives.
For example, some of have met successful businessmen who seem obsessed by one bizarre idea. Such as that their wife is unfaithful. 'Evidence' will be things like, their food tastes too salty, or that when the neighbor drove by their house, he slowed down. That means his wife is having an affair with him, not that he slowed down to plug in his cell phone to the charger, or turn on his CD player.
There tends to be a very bizarre quality to their thinking, but it is strangely limited to only one subject or area of thinking.
In other words, there are outwardly normal looking people who have one area of their thinking that is extremely bizarre and irrational.
THESE people are extremely liable to develop a 'belief system' that can be very, very dangerous.
And the trouble with them, is that the rest of their thinking is sufficiently intact that they can plan very elaborate acts over a long period of time.
They ALSO can recruit others. The intensity of their personality and drive can be so strong that they recruit others to help them. These are generally weak willed people who seem to have virtually no resistance to the person. When they recruit others, or when they get the financial backing of an extremist organization, people often miss that the underlying root of the problem is an area of extremely disordered, irrational thinking.
They get ALLL wrapped up in the beliefs of the organization and totally miss what is really going on.
They often will appear to align themselves with some extreme group, and at least on the surface, they appear to be 'just another one of those guys in that weird group'.
But because they have this flaw in their thinking, this sort of person winds up putting the group's beliefs into action to incredible, unimaginable extremes.
Most extremist organizations LOVE these kinds of people.
Most extremists organization avoid like the plague, anyone who is obviously disfunctional. Those obviously sick, really disorganized people are called 'Loose Cannons' and these organizations work very hard to keep them OUT of their group.
But they LOVE these mildly ill people. These mildly ill guys tend to be somewhat isolated, suspicious of others, and have a single minded purpose that is unbelievable. In other words, they are perfect for the job.
You would think that because they are only dysfunctional in one area of thinking, that the rest of their normal thinking would some how allow them to see that they are crazy in this one area and they would think it through and pull back. But the fact of the matter is that somehow that one area of irrational thinking is so powerful that it shuts out anything else.
They can be relied upon to publicize the beliefs of the organization, but keep any of the chief leaders of the group from taking any risks of harm or criminal convictions.
That explains a lot of what's going on these days. That's very interesting stuff.
So do you think that most people that get off on an insanity plea are really insane? It sounds like a psychiatrist that is properly trained can actually tell. Hollywood has done much to shape peoples thoughts on mental illness.
Having spent many years dealing with severely mentally ill people, I can say that the above statement rings untrue to me. It makes it sound like 1.) They are making up stuff 2.) They make a choice not to 'use their brains'.
One fellow I knew said to his doctor, 'But why can't I spot when I'm becoming sicker? Why do I need someone else's help to do that?'
The doctor replied, 'Because the part of your brain that would do that for you - that part of your brain is gone'.
The doctor is right. In severe mental illness, brain tissue is actually lost. On autopsy, you can pick up the brain and visually see the changes in it - with your eye. You don't need a microscope or a fancy scanner. You can pick the brain up in your hand and feel that it is lighter. Brain tissue is actually destroyed.
Actually, what happens is that their brains are damaged by the disease they have, so that they aren't choosing to 'not use their brains', but instead, their brains are profoundly damaged. Their brains don't work properly any more. They aren't making a choice, they are being sick.
The other thing is that the voices don't 'make' people do things. What happens is that there is an essential instability in the brain. Emotions boil up for no reason, impulses jump up out of the brain and people simply DO things. The 'voices' and 'visions' simply ACCOMPANY that unstable behavior. They don't cause it, though to the person themselves, it certainly seems that they are being 'told' to do something. In fact, what is happening is that the brain is so disordered that people just DO things without thinking it over and deciding in the normal way. My friend's brother was happily chatting with him one day, and then he walked over to the edge of their second floor porch and jumped off it and died. He wasn't unhappy, nothing bad had happened, his brain simply misfired, and he simply walked off the 2nd floor porch. People have lept out of windows and run a mile on two broken legs, too.
They just do not 'choose'. Their brain is so disordered that behavior just appears out of nowhere. For absolutely no reason.
I know many people don't like that idea. I think the idea of a person being sick, makes them think of people who CLAIM to be sick to try and avoid responsibility for their actions. And criminals often try to do that - to avoid responsibility for their acts. They don't limit themselves to claims of mental illness, though, they'll try any tactic.
But the problem is, that since their brains are more intact, they are simply unable to reproduce the speech and behavior patterns of a severely mentally ill person. The person who really is mentally ill is so disordered that even the way he composes sentences is affected.
But most of these criminals have a very 'TV Movie' kind of idea of what severe mental illness looks like. Their attempts to mimic severe mental illness are laughable.
What most of the criminals don't realize, is that these severe mental illnesses are accompanied by what's called 'Soft Signs'. These are actual PHYSICAL, neurological symptoms, that an unaffected person simply can't imitate. For schizophrenia there are up to 75 different 'Soft Signs' they may have.
Their eye gaze isn't even normal. THere is am extremely high speed, intermittent jerking of the eye that not even the cleverest person is physically able to imitate.
As long as the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist (rather than a psychologist or counselor), the criminal is extremely unlikely to successfully fool the authorities.
But what these 'Soft Signs' prove, is very important. That brain is very, very damaged. Severely mentally ill people who are violent, are generally going to continue to behave in the same way unless they are kept on medication. The medication does its best to 'balance' the chemical activity in the brain.
However, the severely mentally ill person is not the only type of violent criminal there is.
There are other possibilities.
I don't have enough information yet to understand what this guy is like. However, a SEVERE mental illness is not the only possibility.
In fact, horrible crimes, especially those with loudly stated political motives, can actually be the act of a person with a rather MILD mental disorder. Some of these people look very normal to people. They usually do not have successful close relationships, but they hold down a job, dress neatly and live at least what looks like a fairly normal life.
Their issue is that they have ONE AREA in which their brain does not work normally. No one has proven that this kind of thinking is a 'choice', either. These thinking patterns tend to be extremely persistent and remain there very long term.
They MIGHT eventually progress to more serious mental disease. But quite often, when they commit their crimes, they are in this very strange state where they are not obviously ill, but have one area of their thinking that is extremely irrational.
These people are almost never diagnosed as 'mentally ill'. They MIGHT have periods when they are more ill, and less functional. In that case it may take years for them to act out their plans.
Or, they may always look very 'normal' to others. They may NEVER actually really become severely ill. They may state in this state for all their lives.
For example, some of have met successful businessmen who seem obsessed by one bizarre idea. Such as that their wife is unfaithful. 'Evidence' will be things like, their food tastes too salty, or that when the neighbor drove by their house, he slowed down. That means his wife is having an affair with him, not that he slowed down to plug in his cell phone to the charger, or turn on his CD player.
There tends to be a very bizarre quality to their thinking, but it is strangely limited to only one subject or area of thinking.
In other words, there are outwardly normal looking people who have one area of their thinking that is extremely bizarre and irrational.
THESE people are extremely liable to develop a 'belief system' that can be very, very dangerous.
And the trouble with them, is that the rest of their thinking is sufficiently intact that they can plan very elaborate acts over a long period of time.
They ALSO can recruit others. The intensity of their personality and drive can be so strong that they recruit others to help them. These are generally weak willed people who seem to have virtually no resistance to the person. When they recruit others, or when they get the financial backing of an extremist organization, people often miss that the underlying root of the problem is an area of extremely disordered, irrational thinking.
They get ALLL wrapped up in the beliefs of the organization and totally miss what is really going on.
They often will appear to align themselves with some extreme group, and at least on the surface, they appear to be 'just another one of those guys in that weird group'.
But because they have this flaw in their thinking, this sort of person winds up putting the group's beliefs into action to incredible, unimaginable extremes.
Most extremist organizations LOVE these kinds of people.
Most extremists organization avoid like the plague, anyone who is obviously disfunctional. Those obviously sick, really disorganized people are called 'Loose Cannons' and these organizations work very hard to keep them OUT of their group.
But they LOVE these mildly ill people. These mildly ill guys tend to be somewhat isolated, suspicious of others, and have a single minded purpose that is unbelievable. In other words, they are perfect for the job.
You would think that because they are only dysfunctional in one area of thinking, that the rest of their normal thinking would some how allow them to see that they are crazy in this one area and they would think it through and pull back. But the fact of the matter is that somehow that one area of irrational thinking is so powerful that it shuts out anything else.
They can be relied upon to publicize the beliefs of the organization, but keep any of the chief leaders of the group from taking any risks of harm or criminal convictions.
That explains a lot of what's going on these days. That's very interesting stuff.
So do you think that most people that get off on an insanity plea are really insane? It sounds like a psychiatrist that is properly trained can actually tell. Hollywood has done much to shape peoples thoughts on mental illness.
- Thread starter
- #27
- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
- 4
- 171
That is so true. That 'TV Movie Idea' of mental illness is more wacked than the mental illnesses themselves.
All the presence of a mental disease in a violent offender SHOULD do, is determine where the person will be locked up and what kind of supervision he needs to be under PERMANENTLY, once he has served his time. The mistake we make is that a crime allows us to realize that an offender needs treatment and some level of supervision for the rest of his life - and then we just don't do that.
There's an essential misconception that jail will 'teach' a completely disordered person to 'control himself' and 'take his medication'.
Which under the circumstances, is the most ridiculous and stupid idea anyone could POSSIBLY DREAM UP. THAT PERSON'S BRAIN IS GONE. IT IS NOT SUDDENLY GOING TO 'LEARN NOT TO DO THAT'. THE BRAIN IS NOT CAPABLE OF FUNCTIONING NORMALLY. THE DISEASE IS IN CHARGE. THE DISEASE WILL CAUSE THE PERSON TO NOT TAKE HIS MEDICATION THE MINUTE HE IS NOT BEING FORCED TO TAKE HIS MEDICATION.
FIRST OF ALL, VERY FEW MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE ARE SEVERELy VIOLENT OFFENDERS. So right there, any criminal who attempts to pose as a mentally ill person starts out at a disadvantage. It simply is not common for mentally ill people to be violent offenders. When a mentally ill person actually IS violent, the crime tends to have an extremely typical look and feel to it.
Further, the law is now grown up enough that it looks at whether any supposed mental illness had anything to do with the crime anyway. Very often, the key battle between the prosecution and defence is not whether the person is mentally ill at all, but whether the illness actually was a factor in the crime and if so, to what extent.
If a guy beheads 4 people on a bus and jumps up and down over their remains screaming that he is God, that is a very different looking crime from one in which a mildly mentally ill person robs a store and steals a CD player that he has wanted for a long time. His disease may give him some degree of poor judgement and decision making, but his defence will have a very hard time arguing that his mental disease has any relevancy to his criminal act.
To start, toss out all your ideas about the 'Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity' plea. Just discard all of it, LOL. Well at least try it on for size while you read this...LOL.
First of all, it is the rarest ATTEMPTED plea in the US.
Secondly, it is also the rarest WON plea in the US. Say there are 100 NGBRI pleas attempted in the US in one year, and none of them win. That's very typical of the plea. It is just very, very hard to win it.
Lawyers rarely go for the NGBRI plea because they think they will WIN IT. That's a much bigger subject and I can go into that later.
Yup.
IF a person is found 'Not Guilty By Reason of Mental Disease or Defect'(NGBRI) of a serious crime, he is VERY UNLIKELY to walk out a free man - ever.
In fact, this whole idea that the Not Guilty By Reason of plea means that a person then GOES FREE - is a total and complete fabrication of the AMerican media.
Total, complete. Why?
Because it sells papers, it gets people on the website with the story. It gets people outraged. And when they get outraged, they keep coming on the website or buying the paper. That means that there is more chance that they will notice the advertisements, and buy the products advertised by the paper.
That is what that whole fabrication, that entire, gigantic LIE is about. Selling toothpaste and sanitary napkins. That's why this outrageous lie has been promulgated. To get you to buy a toothbrush.
In fact, he is about to spend far MORE time in a locked mental health facility than any person convicted of ordinary criminal charges would.
OH YES.
The prosecutions motivation for avoiding this plea is due to how the public views the plea. In other words, the prosecution is playing a popularity game. I consider that 'pandering'.
But this will shock you - there is extremely strong motivation for the DEFENSE to avoid the NGBRI! OH YEAH! This plea hasn't solely fallen by the wayside because of public perception of the plea!
Because if the defense successfully pleas NGBRI, his client is about to spend far, far longer in a locked facility than a person convicted as guilty. Oh yeah! Look at the numbers.
In fact, it was DEFENSE side logic that sunk the NGBRI plea - the defense's job is to shorten the client's sentence. The prosecution's job is to lengthen it. The two are supposed to balance each other. But if a defense lawyer goes for a NGBRI plea - his client will be detained a far LONGER TIME. Yup, again, look at the numbers.
Not only that, but a mentally disturbed offender can be kept in a jail forever - without any trial at all.
He can simply be adjudged incompetent to stand trial.
The ONLY reason that some of the high profile mentally disturbed offender cases have rushed to judgement is again - public thirst for retribution. Immediate and swift. REad the comment bb's some day. 'Burn him, burn him, burn him. Let me kill the sucker. Let me beat him to death'. 'Who the **** needs a trial, just kill him'.
The public wants blood.
In realitiy, people who are adjudged incompetent to stand trial can sit in jail or a locked mental facility for the rest of their lives, without due process, without a trial, without nothin'. Even though a basic principle of our constitution is a right to a trial without delay('without delay' does not mean that the trial is allowed to be any less thorough or fair or balanced than any other trial- that is ALSO a basic principle of our constitution).
In fact, from the point of view of protecting the public, about the worst thing that can happen to a severely mentally ill person is being in prison.
What's the BEST thing? That he receives supervision, and is housed according to the realities of his individual disease. Every mentally ill person's disease is different. If his disease takes the form of violence that is only controlled by daily taking medication, then he has to be in a situation in which it can be absolutely guaranteed that he take his medication. Instead what is done is put him in a situation where it is absolutely guaranteed that he will NOT take his medication.
Despite the fact that FORTY PERCENT of most jail populations is taking some sort of psychiatric medication(not always for mental disease) and our jails are the biggest de facto mental wards in the history of the United States, EVER, our jails are not good at dealing with the most severely ill people, and especially not the chronically violent disturbed offender.
Think about it. Say a mentally ill violent offender kills someone.
HERE IS THE PROBLEM.
The person goes to prison. But the sentence is brief - seven years, ten years. Yup. Jail sentences simply ARE BRIEF. THey ARE. They are nowhere NEAR as long as the public imagines. A non mentally ill 'regular criminal' I knew was supposed to get THIRTY YEARS for multiple burglaries - he served SIX MONTHS.
SENTENCES ARE BRIEF IN THE FIRST PLACE. KEEP THAT IN MIND AS WE GO ON. CRIMINAL SENTENCES ARE INCREDIBLY BRIEF.
EVEN IF THE DISTURBED OFFENDER'S SENTENCE IS NOT BRIEF, HE IS ALMOST GUARANTEED TO DETERIORATE IN JAIL.
During his incarceration, the person is at liberty to refuse medical treatment appropriate for his disease.
Since most jails are private businesses, they are likely to be happy if a person refuses appropriate treatment - he can be given cheap sedatives or a randomly chosen older generic that may or may not actually work for his disease. Or it may have so many side effects and be so unpleasant to take that it GUARANTEES he will not continue to take it upon return to society.
These medicines are cheap. So give them instead of the more costly medicines that would actually prevent his disease from progressing and worsening, and that he would have even the slightest chance of being more likely to continue to take upon release. He can be given minimal medical attention, instead of the more careful and frequent supervision he needs from a psychiatrist when he takes modern medicines, which require a person to work to maintain a healthy weight and require periodic blood sugar and liver enzyme checks.
And most importantly, he is at liberty to refuse treatment for his disease. And in fact, the sicker he is, the more likely he is to refuse treatment.
SO. Your mentally disturbed violent offender GOES to jail. He's adjudged guilty and serves his time and is released.
And the public is OH SO HAPPY. THEY HAVE RETRIBUTION.
He is released to the community in a far worse state than when he went in.
He will, statistically, be extremely likely to re-offend.
Without treatment, he worsens. Without supervision, he does not take his medication. Without intensive support, he will re-offend.
All the presence of a mental disease in a violent offender SHOULD do, is determine where the person will be locked up and what kind of supervision he needs to be under PERMANENTLY, once he has served his time. The mistake we make is that a crime allows us to realize that an offender needs treatment and some level of supervision for the rest of his life - and then we just don't do that.
There's an essential misconception that jail will 'teach' a completely disordered person to 'control himself' and 'take his medication'.
Which under the circumstances, is the most ridiculous and stupid idea anyone could POSSIBLY DREAM UP. THAT PERSON'S BRAIN IS GONE. IT IS NOT SUDDENLY GOING TO 'LEARN NOT TO DO THAT'. THE BRAIN IS NOT CAPABLE OF FUNCTIONING NORMALLY. THE DISEASE IS IN CHARGE. THE DISEASE WILL CAUSE THE PERSON TO NOT TAKE HIS MEDICATION THE MINUTE HE IS NOT BEING FORCED TO TAKE HIS MEDICATION.
FIRST OF ALL, VERY FEW MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE ARE SEVERELy VIOLENT OFFENDERS. So right there, any criminal who attempts to pose as a mentally ill person starts out at a disadvantage. It simply is not common for mentally ill people to be violent offenders. When a mentally ill person actually IS violent, the crime tends to have an extremely typical look and feel to it.
Further, the law is now grown up enough that it looks at whether any supposed mental illness had anything to do with the crime anyway. Very often, the key battle between the prosecution and defence is not whether the person is mentally ill at all, but whether the illness actually was a factor in the crime and if so, to what extent.
If a guy beheads 4 people on a bus and jumps up and down over their remains screaming that he is God, that is a very different looking crime from one in which a mildly mentally ill person robs a store and steals a CD player that he has wanted for a long time. His disease may give him some degree of poor judgement and decision making, but his defence will have a very hard time arguing that his mental disease has any relevancy to his criminal act.
To start, toss out all your ideas about the 'Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity' plea. Just discard all of it, LOL. Well at least try it on for size while you read this...LOL.
First of all, it is the rarest ATTEMPTED plea in the US.
Secondly, it is also the rarest WON plea in the US. Say there are 100 NGBRI pleas attempted in the US in one year, and none of them win. That's very typical of the plea. It is just very, very hard to win it.
Lawyers rarely go for the NGBRI plea because they think they will WIN IT. That's a much bigger subject and I can go into that later.
Yup.
IF a person is found 'Not Guilty By Reason of Mental Disease or Defect'(NGBRI) of a serious crime, he is VERY UNLIKELY to walk out a free man - ever.
In fact, this whole idea that the Not Guilty By Reason of plea means that a person then GOES FREE - is a total and complete fabrication of the AMerican media.
Total, complete. Why?
Because it sells papers, it gets people on the website with the story. It gets people outraged. And when they get outraged, they keep coming on the website or buying the paper. That means that there is more chance that they will notice the advertisements, and buy the products advertised by the paper.
That is what that whole fabrication, that entire, gigantic LIE is about. Selling toothpaste and sanitary napkins. That's why this outrageous lie has been promulgated. To get you to buy a toothbrush.
In fact, he is about to spend far MORE time in a locked mental health facility than any person convicted of ordinary criminal charges would.
OH YES.
The prosecutions motivation for avoiding this plea is due to how the public views the plea. In other words, the prosecution is playing a popularity game. I consider that 'pandering'.
But this will shock you - there is extremely strong motivation for the DEFENSE to avoid the NGBRI! OH YEAH! This plea hasn't solely fallen by the wayside because of public perception of the plea!
Because if the defense successfully pleas NGBRI, his client is about to spend far, far longer in a locked facility than a person convicted as guilty. Oh yeah! Look at the numbers.
In fact, it was DEFENSE side logic that sunk the NGBRI plea - the defense's job is to shorten the client's sentence. The prosecution's job is to lengthen it. The two are supposed to balance each other. But if a defense lawyer goes for a NGBRI plea - his client will be detained a far LONGER TIME. Yup, again, look at the numbers.
Not only that, but a mentally disturbed offender can be kept in a jail forever - without any trial at all.
He can simply be adjudged incompetent to stand trial.
The ONLY reason that some of the high profile mentally disturbed offender cases have rushed to judgement is again - public thirst for retribution. Immediate and swift. REad the comment bb's some day. 'Burn him, burn him, burn him. Let me kill the sucker. Let me beat him to death'. 'Who the **** needs a trial, just kill him'.
The public wants blood.
In realitiy, people who are adjudged incompetent to stand trial can sit in jail or a locked mental facility for the rest of their lives, without due process, without a trial, without nothin'. Even though a basic principle of our constitution is a right to a trial without delay('without delay' does not mean that the trial is allowed to be any less thorough or fair or balanced than any other trial- that is ALSO a basic principle of our constitution).
In fact, from the point of view of protecting the public, about the worst thing that can happen to a severely mentally ill person is being in prison.
What's the BEST thing? That he receives supervision, and is housed according to the realities of his individual disease. Every mentally ill person's disease is different. If his disease takes the form of violence that is only controlled by daily taking medication, then he has to be in a situation in which it can be absolutely guaranteed that he take his medication. Instead what is done is put him in a situation where it is absolutely guaranteed that he will NOT take his medication.
Despite the fact that FORTY PERCENT of most jail populations is taking some sort of psychiatric medication(not always for mental disease) and our jails are the biggest de facto mental wards in the history of the United States, EVER, our jails are not good at dealing with the most severely ill people, and especially not the chronically violent disturbed offender.
Think about it. Say a mentally ill violent offender kills someone.
HERE IS THE PROBLEM.
The person goes to prison. But the sentence is brief - seven years, ten years. Yup. Jail sentences simply ARE BRIEF. THey ARE. They are nowhere NEAR as long as the public imagines. A non mentally ill 'regular criminal' I knew was supposed to get THIRTY YEARS for multiple burglaries - he served SIX MONTHS.
SENTENCES ARE BRIEF IN THE FIRST PLACE. KEEP THAT IN MIND AS WE GO ON. CRIMINAL SENTENCES ARE INCREDIBLY BRIEF.
EVEN IF THE DISTURBED OFFENDER'S SENTENCE IS NOT BRIEF, HE IS ALMOST GUARANTEED TO DETERIORATE IN JAIL.
During his incarceration, the person is at liberty to refuse medical treatment appropriate for his disease.
Since most jails are private businesses, they are likely to be happy if a person refuses appropriate treatment - he can be given cheap sedatives or a randomly chosen older generic that may or may not actually work for his disease. Or it may have so many side effects and be so unpleasant to take that it GUARANTEES he will not continue to take it upon return to society.
These medicines are cheap. So give them instead of the more costly medicines that would actually prevent his disease from progressing and worsening, and that he would have even the slightest chance of being more likely to continue to take upon release. He can be given minimal medical attention, instead of the more careful and frequent supervision he needs from a psychiatrist when he takes modern medicines, which require a person to work to maintain a healthy weight and require periodic blood sugar and liver enzyme checks.
And most importantly, he is at liberty to refuse treatment for his disease. And in fact, the sicker he is, the more likely he is to refuse treatment.
SO. Your mentally disturbed violent offender GOES to jail. He's adjudged guilty and serves his time and is released.
And the public is OH SO HAPPY. THEY HAVE RETRIBUTION.
He is released to the community in a far worse state than when he went in.
He will, statistically, be extremely likely to re-offend.
Without treatment, he worsens. Without supervision, he does not take his medication. Without intensive support, he will re-offend.
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So if we don't want to pay taxes and support treatment of sick people, mentally or otherwise the solution would probably be selective breeding. Somehow I don't think the church could shoulder all those bills. The only way to do what many in our society want is to breed perfect people.
Sound like a good sci fi book doesn't it.
What a vicious circle the whole thing is.
It's amazing what media of all types does to the public good to sell products directly or indirectly by affecting politics.
Sound like a good sci fi book doesn't it.
What a vicious circle the whole thing is.
It's amazing what media of all types does to the public good to sell products directly or indirectly by affecting politics.
I think the most accurate American counterpart of this crime is Oklahoma City. Anders Breivik is a religious extremest and a political extremist gun nut who felt that Norway was being over run by "multiculturalism". Does this sound familiar? The camp he shot up was run by Norway's ruling political party. He dressed as a police officer, gathered the campers together and shot them. Then he hunted down the ones that ran. I doubt the man is mentally ill. He is no more mentally ill than any other extremist. He had specific targets and a political motivation.
This is tragic, and horrible. Those poor young people at the camp. It also sounds like there were some police failures in getting to the camp in a timely manner. There was no helicopter available and they had trouble finding boats.
This is tragic, and horrible. Those poor young people at the camp. It also sounds like there were some police failures in getting to the camp in a timely manner. There was no helicopter available and they had trouble finding boats.
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- Thread starter
- #30
- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
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Some would argue that there is an element of mental disease in all extremism and fanaticism. I believe that, but I also don't believe that excuses a person from responsibility.
Some would say that anyone who would kill a group of people, even to make some sort of political or moral protest, can't be mentally normal by definition - that's not something mentally normal people do. I think that's a valid statement too.
For example, few researchers think that Hitler was mentally normal. He had some completely bizarre things he was obsessed with and pursued at great expense. And the things that he was willing to do to reach a goal were truly well out of the scope of decency. Even things he did in wartime were well outside the Geneva convention and other agreed upon ways of conducting a war. He was as mad in war as he was outside of war.
My theory is that Hitler was like the 'delusional' person I described above - completely irrational in specific areas of his thinking, but with 'reality testing' intact.
'Reality testing' means that the person, despite being abnormal in his thinking, is able to tell correctly what is going on around him, and can, when he wishes to, control his own behavior.
But this sort of person is without the disorganization and distortion of true mental illness. This makes them particularly dangerous.
As an example, one of the folks I volunteered for, when we were walking down the street to the supermarket, leaped up against me and tried to climb up on my shoulders, and he was an average size adult male and he really hurt me. He wound up pushing me into a display window of a store. Fortunately it was a very sturdy window.
I said, 'why did you do that?'
'He patted me and smiled fondly and said, 'I just saved your life!'
'WHAT?'
'That guy in that car has been following us. He was going to run over you and kill you. I saved your life'.
'THAT CAR WAS THIRTY FEET FROM US AND GOING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!!!'
'No it wasn't', he says sweetly. 'It was going straight for you and accelerating'.
'IT WAS NOT'.
'Yes it was. But you can thank me later'.
This guy had no ability any more to question how his brain interpreted information, or to even believe when other people told him what really was going on.
THAT is impaired reality testing. They aren't arguing with you, they aren't playing or being stubborn, they aren't 'imagining'. Even more incredible, there isn't anything wrong with their vision.
When HE LOOKS AT THE CAR, he SEES exactly what I see. BUT HIS BRAIN INTERPRETS THE MEANING OF THAT INFORMATION INCORRECTLY.
Not only has he lost the ability to interpret the information he takes in, his thinking is too limited to take in and believe another person's version of what happened..
Some would say that anyone who would kill a group of people, even to make some sort of political or moral protest, can't be mentally normal by definition - that's not something mentally normal people do. I think that's a valid statement too.
For example, few researchers think that Hitler was mentally normal. He had some completely bizarre things he was obsessed with and pursued at great expense. And the things that he was willing to do to reach a goal were truly well out of the scope of decency. Even things he did in wartime were well outside the Geneva convention and other agreed upon ways of conducting a war. He was as mad in war as he was outside of war.
My theory is that Hitler was like the 'delusional' person I described above - completely irrational in specific areas of his thinking, but with 'reality testing' intact.
'Reality testing' means that the person, despite being abnormal in his thinking, is able to tell correctly what is going on around him, and can, when he wishes to, control his own behavior.
But this sort of person is without the disorganization and distortion of true mental illness. This makes them particularly dangerous.
As an example, one of the folks I volunteered for, when we were walking down the street to the supermarket, leaped up against me and tried to climb up on my shoulders, and he was an average size adult male and he really hurt me. He wound up pushing me into a display window of a store. Fortunately it was a very sturdy window.
I said, 'why did you do that?'
'He patted me and smiled fondly and said, 'I just saved your life!'
'WHAT?'
'That guy in that car has been following us. He was going to run over you and kill you. I saved your life'.
'THAT CAR WAS THIRTY FEET FROM US AND GOING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!!!'
'No it wasn't', he says sweetly. 'It was going straight for you and accelerating'.
'IT WAS NOT'.
'Yes it was. But you can thank me later'.
This guy had no ability any more to question how his brain interpreted information, or to even believe when other people told him what really was going on.
THAT is impaired reality testing. They aren't arguing with you, they aren't playing or being stubborn, they aren't 'imagining'. Even more incredible, there isn't anything wrong with their vision.
When HE LOOKS AT THE CAR, he SEES exactly what I see. BUT HIS BRAIN INTERPRETS THE MEANING OF THAT INFORMATION INCORRECTLY.
Not only has he lost the ability to interpret the information he takes in, his thinking is too limited to take in and believe another person's version of what happened..
Last edited:
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