Norway's Sad Tragedy

I'm reading the mental health laws in Norway now.

And it seems much of the idyl I've been taught about Norway isn't true. And it seems despite different sounding laws, you have many of the problems with mentally ill offenders that we have in the USA.

But there is something different about this case, and I think that it will be handled differently.

In any case, if the man is released in 19 months, he is a dead man walking.
 
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Or the Norweigans would upset the government and insist to do something about the changing the laws regarding to mentally ill and murderers and the likes.
 
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Pic 2 is pixelated. Those blobs are dead bodies. The boy was executed.

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No, not yet. He has requested that the evaluator be anything but Norwegian, but this is unlikely to be granted.
He also requested the hearing be public with press, to present himself in his uniform and to be allowed to read publicly from his manifesto. These requests were denied.

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That is not what he has communicated at all. If this is all you gathered from all your reading, I suggest you put on your reading glasses and try again.


You saw how Loughner acted after the Arizona shooting? He was grinning from ear to ear. He was so proud of what he did. Nuts. Completely.

So you think the US soldiers posing smiling in photos with bodies of civilians are all completely nuts, then? Not just BAD people, but insane?

But for me, reading his manifesto was all I needed to do to know that this guy's bats aren't all in the belfrey. It reads like every othe 'psychotic manifesto' I ever read. And I've read a fair number, actually.

What exactly kind of "nonsense" do you think he is, and based on what?

I saw an interview with his parents, and I think that they have known for a long time that there was something very wrong with him. I just got that impression.

No, you didn't. His mother has not spoken to anyone, his father and former stepmother (divorced) have, though. His father is a former diplomat, now living in Spain. He has not spoked to his son since he was 15, "back when he was just a regular boy". His former stepmother just met him this spring and said he seemed perfectly normal, and was very eager to finish HIS BOOK and told her she would see it when it was published. No knowledge of any nonsense crazy there, then.

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No, he didn't. He had a clean record.

I think that much of the refusal to consider mental illness in this guy, lies in the fear of a mentally ill person getting found 'not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect', and then getting turned loose and killing another bunch of people.

No, that is your interpretation - most people who say he is NOT insane actually say that with regret, as most Norwegians think of psychiatric treatment as a better option considering the possibilities of prolonged incarceration.

By the way, the 21 year maximum prison sentence can be increased. Every five years the authorities simply deem him a continuing danger to the public. THat part of it is very simple.

No. A regular prison sentence can NEVER excede 21 years. For crimes against humanity that number is 30. "Forvaring", which is care and treatment in a mental health facility, this is a theoretical possibility although highly unusual and previously reserved for the truly "nonsense crazy" with wild eyes and incoherent speech, because the laws are strict (in the patients favour) even there.
We must just wait and see what happens.



With all due respect, please get your facts straight before you make statements like these. I respect that you have your own view, but you seem to have limited insight in the matters which you are discussing, so you shouldn't be so bombastic.​
 
You are really really twisting what I am writing.

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Pic 2 is pixelated. Those blobs are dead bodies. The boy was executed.

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No, not yet. He has requested that the evaluator be anything but Norwegian, but this is unlikely to be granted.
He also requested the hearing be public with press, to present himself in his uniform and to be allowed to read publicly from his manifesto. These requests were denied.

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That is not what he has communicated at all. If this is all you gathered from all your reading, I suggest you put on your reading glasses and try again.

I realize that was not what he said or did. I was trying to make an example, that's all.

If it will calm you any in this attack on me, I will tell you that I do not feel that his mental illness is an EXCUSE for his crime or a REASON for his crime nor that it should influence his lawyer's choice of plea or his conviction.

I do not believe he meets the definition, even in Norway, of legal 'insanity'. The word in Norwegian law is different, but the concept seems very similar to ours.

His simply does NOT have the sort of impairment that other people have. He is simply functioning at too high a level. But I think he's as crazy as an outhouse rat. And not PD or narcisicim - high functioning schizophrenia or delusional disorder.





You saw how Loughner acted after the Arizona shooting? He was grinning from ear to ear. He was so proud of what he did. Nuts. Completely.

So you think the US soldiers posing smiling in photos with bodies of civilians are all completely nuts, then? Not just BAD people, but insane?

You are twisting my words and attacking me personally - why - because I said I thought Norway is a nice country? And you hate it and think it's goign to he** in a bucket?

Frankly, I think the truth lies somewhere between my uninformed, naive idea and your idea that it's completely and irretrievably gone to the dogs. I think there are problems, serious ones, but I still think it is a good country and that problems can be slowly improved with much effort. Perhaps this terrible crime will help to improve weak laws and procedures.

What Loughner does has NOTHING to do with what soldiers do in war. While soldiers sometimes make horrible errors, lose their tempers, are given idiotic orders, or do completely wrong things, they are acting as soldiers. With few exceptions, they are not mentally ill. Loughner has that insane smile on his face because of his brain looking like swiss cheese inside - he is so sick that he has very inappropriate emotions in inappropriate situations. He is unlikely to ever walk free, mental illess or not. Other mentally ill criminals who have committed terrible crimes in the US, like Andrea Yates, will also be in jail for the rest of their lives. They may receive psychiatric treatment in jail, they may be in a prison unit for mentally ill people(40% of the people in US jail, I'm told, are being given psychiatric meds), but Andrea Yates is not likely to ever leave a supervised facilility.



But for me, reading his manifesto was all I needed to do to know that this guy's bats aren't all in the belfrey. It reads like every othe 'psychotic manifesto' I ever read. And I've read a fair number, actually.

What exactly kind of "nonsense" do you think he is, and based on what?

Based on his sentence structure and the way he shifts from one idea to another, I think he's a very high functioning schizophrenic or has a very severe Delusional Disorder.

I saw an interview with his parents, and I think that they have known for a long time that there was something very wrong with him. I just got that impression.

No, you didn't. His mother has not spoken to anyone, his father and former stepmother (divorced) have, though. His father is a former diplomat, now living in Spain. He has not spoked to his son since he was 15, "back when he was just a regular boy". His former stepmother just met him this spring and said he seemed perfectly normal, and was very eager to finish HIS BOOK and told her she would see it when it was published. No knowledge of any nonsense crazy there, then.

The English translation said it was his parents and nothing more. If the English translation says that, that's all I know about it. It was said the same way on 12 different announcements. I can only get the news I can get.

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No, he didn't. He had a clean record.

again, this was repeated many times in English reports over the last few days. I can only get the news I can get. It was stated they were very minor crimes.

But many of the very sick people I've worked with have only been convicted of very minor offenses or none at all. Several have had felony charges that were expunged from their records. Or when they were transferred to a new agency, the record of their previous crime was not taken over to their new agency.


I think that much of the refusal to consider mental illness in this guy, lies in the fear of a mentally ill person getting found 'not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect', and then getting turned loose and killing another bunch of people.

No, that is your interpretation - most people who say he is NOT insane actually say that with regret, as most Norwegians think of psychiatric treatment as a better option considering the possibilities of prolonged incarceration.

I think a psychiatrist would have his doubts about that if he read that manifesto. it's a mess. It's not just what it says but its structure. But the contents too, it has a completely familiar ring to it.

By the way, the 21 year maximum prison sentence can be increased. Every five years the authorities simply deem him a continuing danger to the public. THat part of it is very simple.

No. A regular prison sentence can NEVER excede 21 years. For crimes against humanity that number is 30. "Forvaring", which is care and treatment in a mental health facility, this is a theoretical possibility although highly unusual and previously reserved for the truly "nonsense crazy" with wild eyes and incoherent speech, because the laws are strict (in the patients favour) even there.
We must just wait and see what happens.

I have just read in the English translation of the norwegian laws, as well as in 2 unrelated news articles, that the Norwegian law allows for a criminal to be judged a continuing danger, every five years, and that time can be added to the person's sentence.

With all due respect, please get your facts straight before you make statements like these. I respect that you have your own view, but you seem to have limited insight in the matters which you are discussing, so you shouldn't be so bombastic.​

I am not the one being bombastic here. I am thinking outloud based on the news reports we have gotten in the USA. The Norwegian law is not familiar to me, but a friend who has studied it also gave me some information and I repeated it and identified that information as his contribution here. My other experience of Norway being idyliic certainly is naive, but I am very eager to learn about it.

I have been around severely mentally ill people since I was 16, I am almost 60 now. I read that manifesto, and it sounds to me like a rambling mess.

I will admit it is also a huge legal mess when a high functioning, well groomed, intelligent sounding person with a political affiliation surfaces. And I do not feel in this case that his mental illness should encourage the court to have any mercy, but if his mental illness could help keep him in prison for the rest of his life in Norway, then I hope I am right. I am never surprised when I am wrong, that is life, but in this case, if being mentally ill will keep him locked up, I REALLY hope I'm right.
 
welsummerchicks: I can't quote you when you write inside the quotes, so I will reply as best I can like this.

First of all, I am not attacking you, all I have said about you or to you is that you have too little information to be taking on the role of informing others in this case.

Second, regarding his mental state - if he was schizophrenic, he would be completely wacko by now, and I mean in the sense that he would be visibly disturbed. Schizophrenia does not get better without treatment, and if he had this illness for several years and culminating in these horrific acts, he would not have been able to execute them so efficiently. He would have grown inreasingly more disturbed and people in his surroundings would have noticed. The same goes for delusions. Now I must ask - what is his delusion? The Knights Templar exist, a photo was just published of some of them, they belong with the EDL. The PCCTS also exist, but their websites have gone down and they deny any affiliation. He is at war. This is not a delusion, it is more of a decision - the multicultural forces are his enemy and in his eyes they are out to destroy what he holds dear. And without saying the two are the same - the same could be said about the wars the western world are now fighting in the Middle East - we are "bringing them democracy and freeing them from evil". But no one calls the west delusional, because it is a shared "delusion".

It is a well known fact that mild narcissism and lack of empathy can be a good thing when you're at war, because it enables you to stay calm and collected and do what you're supposed to. Soldiers kill in cold blood, they are not "wackos" because of it. ABB killed in cold blood, seeing himself as a soldier.

Are muslim fundamentalists "crazy"? Are all suicide bombers "crazy"? They act out of a radical fundamentalist belief that what they are doing is necessary and beneficial for their cause. So did ABB. His radical fundamentalism is just of a different brand than we are used to dealing with, and therefore we jump to the conclusion that he must be insane, completely off his rocker.

That being said - yes, he is "off his rocker" to some extent. He does not, as far as we know, have an environment that supports him closely and wholeheartedly, that has encouraged him and helped him, he has kept this all to himself for years. That means he has no need for confirmation from others that what he is doing is right, and most people need a whole lot of encouragement and confirmation to take the lives of other people. In war it is called "morale". A narcissist, however, does not need these things, the bigger the narcissist the less confirmation and support is needed. This is why it is an advantage in battle, it boosts confidence from within. They feel superior, they feel confident, and most importantly - they feel they are always right. A narcissist has delusions of grandeur, but delusions and psychoses are not one and the same.
Further, he clearly lacks empathy, which also follows the narcissist. In this case he seems nearly devoid of it, but then again - it seems he spared a boy. Perhaps he was out of ammo at the moment, who knows. But he is definately COLD and severely lacking in empathy. Still not psychotic.

He has come out as a fairly moderate right-winger, all the while hiding the fact that he is not moderate at all, but extreme. Hiding this was a carefully calculated move, to prevent attention. Yes, a psychotic man can easily hide his ideas in order to complete a plan, but usually it is not possible for them (when they are this determined in their beliefs and plans) to hand out a watered down version of their delusions, either they keep quiet or they tell all. Yes, it is possible for him to be psychotic, but it is highly unlikely.

Regarding inappropriate emotions, that is exactly what I was referring to. Taking the life of a civilian and then holding them up while you smile for the photographer IS highly inappropriate, and US soldiers are doing it. Norwegian soldiers are doing it as well, I'm sure. My point is, while we may be disgusted, shocked and horrified, it still does not make them insane. It "just" makes them inappropriate, insensitive a-holes with a hole where their heart should be. The same is true for ABB.
We must come to grips with the fact that some people just have an unfathomable amount of evil in them, and we must try to come to grips with the fact that they are NOT insane. That is the scary part.


I do not hate my country. But I do think we have many problems and a lack of will to face them, and naturally the recent events have me a bit fired up, surely you can understand that? I think it is difficult for everyone to fathom just how horrific this is. The man hunted down kids, dressed in a police uniform. Called them over and told them they were safe with him, a police officer. They were terrified of their rescuers. Hundreds of kids are scarred for life, severely traumatized, and the image in their nightmares is dressed as a protector of society. I just can't find the right words, it can't be expressed. And I wasn't even there!

Regarding his sentence structure and the fragmentet pieces in his writings: Parts of the text are cut and pasted from others, he has written little of it himself. Some is from the Unabomber, in fact. Perhaps that's why it would be familiar to an American? His sentence structure is quite possibly affected by the fact that English is not his first language. There is much material available in Norwegian, where debated his right wing views without attracting any particular attention, other than to the fact that he is clearly an intelligent individual.


I'm sorry that the English speaking media has misinformed you, but as I said you must be sure before you state things as facts. I realize this is difficult when you can not yourself easily check the sources. Unfortunately there seems to be a great deal of misinformation about this, it's the rush for information driving people to spread before they check.
If these are simply your thoughts you need to identify them as such and not present them as facts. Again, I am not attacking you and I am quite calm, I am just saying that when one does not know for sure, one needs to be careful spreading possibly faulty conclusions and making it clear that they are opinions, not facts. As I have stated that some things I do not know for sure and I make it clear when that is the case.

Yes, this is a bloody mess, literally. No one can say for sure what he will be charged with in the end, who will evaluate him and what their conclusion might be, we don't know exactly how far from the truth he has painted himself to be, we don't even know for sure if he was alone about this. Victims are still being identified and some are still missing. There are reports of a second shooter, about ABB and a second man in a boat the vicinity the night before, reports of grenades on the island, and so forth. We feel we know so much, but this is an illusion carefully orchestrated by the man himself. Most of what we think we know, HE told us.


Yes, he might be stark raving mad. Time will tell. But I think we will be facing the most difficult scenario - that this was a normal boy with a normal upbringing, a hatred to his father for leaving him, a hatred to his muslim friend who betrayed him and a mind blowing, growing determination to get back at us all.


WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!
If you value your sleep and want it nightmare free, don't watch this video. It is uncensored footage from Utøya. The man filming cuts himself off mid-sentence with profanities.
Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
 
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Funny how only right-wingers get all the attention. Sure, they do more dramatic stuff, but I'm fairly sure that far-Left communist and radical environmentalist organizations have killed more people and destroyed more property, especially during the Cold War era.

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Its because, most medias are in the left.

Actually most media outlets are not in the left. Most just report news. Their editorials mat be left but their news is news and I've seen plenty of right leaning stuff on the major network news shows.

As for what Q said. It's just that for the past 30 years or so all the terrorist acts committed by American terrorists have been by far right extremists. Timothy McVeigh, the guy that flew the plane into a federal building, there's been a few others. Plus the far right extremist types are the ones forming militias to fight against the government. I'm talking far far right. Yes they are terrorists too.

Now we did have a number of terrorist groups on the left during Viet Nam and some environmental terrorist groups. The deaths they caused were usually accidental though. Janitors in buildings they blew up during the middle of the night, or a watchman shooting at them that got shot back at. The Black Panthers were pretty radical, but then again so was the KKK. That was a much different time period. Not saying they were justified doing it, but they were fighting for a just cause. Being drafted for a war to support the defense industry is just wrong. It's always our young men dying to make the fat cats fatter. The terrorist acts these days are just nutty.

I don't know if this guy was crazy as in missing a part of his brain like Wellsummer described, but he's evil for sure and I wouldn't be worried about him getting gassed or hung or whatever. I would prefer to see him rot in a 5 x 10 concrete cell on a maximum security prison. The only problem is that politics does strange things. A new regime could come in and decide that killing all those free thinkers was a good thing and he could be more useful somewhere else.

Does anyone know how old most of these children actually were? Are we talking 10-14, 14-18. Glenn Beck said they were like the Hitler Youth. So I was curious how old they were.
 
Anyone who would pose happily in front of a dead civilian that they killed has serious issues, soldier or not.
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Here's the deal: whether he's insane or not, he's pure evil and needs to be punished accordingly. Someone like that is BEYOND hope.
 
I think this sort of person always baffles the authorities and makes a hash of any country's laws. They sound so smart and normal and are neat and tidy and well groomed, they pick up a political cause that draws people to focus more on the political cause due because that cause affects their own lives in very unpleasant ways.......

And occasionally these people will not only commit some crime, but read up on the law and get themselves off on some technicality.

Even though I think this guy is mentally ill, I don't think he's 'psychotic' in the sense of a lot of people I worked with.

But I also have seen people who were extremely sick and paranoid, but acted very intelligent, organized, clean, neat, well groomed.

Most of the guys I dealt with truly had no control over what they were doing and did not have a clue as to what was really going on - like the classic example of the guy who is shown a person and is asked, 'what do you see?' and says, ' It might be a chest of drawers or a bed bent over double'.

I've found them sitting in the middle of a street drawing big circles on the street with a pencil, crawling on their hands and knees a across the middle of a busy street...things like that. Obviously sick. Sure, sometimes these guys might attack someone on the street, but they really have no idea what's going on. The attacks were impulsive and poorly thought out.

This guy is not like that. He planned this for 2 years.

I don't know if any of you remember the book, 'Sophie's Choice', by William Styron, but there was this very charming, personable, handsome, dashing character that got involved with a woman who felt a lot of guilt about what she had done to survive time in a concentration camp.

Not that the Norway shooter was charming or dashing, and of course this was a novel, not a text book, but my point was that he simply does not look like a mentally sick person. Yet like the character in the novel what he DID to people was - totally disordered and sick.
 
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There were people from around five (with their parents who were working there) and up to senior, I suppose. The camp attendees seem to be from 14-23 mostly. Not everyone is identified yet, but the combined (from both scenes) list at present, some dead, some missing and presumed dead:
14 - 2
15 - 2
16 - 3
17 - 8
18 - 9
19 - 4
20 - 1
21 - 2
23 - 1
28 - 1
30 - 2
32 - 1
34 - 1
43 - 1
45 - 1
51 - 2
56 - 1
61 - 1

The majority seems to be 14-19.
 
I think part of what is hindering this discussion, is that the definition of "mentally ill" is not clearly defined and still heavily debated. For instance, epilepsy, even though things like partial seizures can cause altered states of consciousness and can make some people, say, unable to recognize loved ones faces even for a spell after the seizure, is typically considered a neurological disorder and a physical disorder, not mental illness. However, the more we learn about mental illness, the more we find physical abnormalities or abnormalities in neuron firing, hormone release, etc, and the line between physical and mental disorders is not so easy to define. Some label disorders and diseases that are still not well understood "mental illness" for instance, some consider things like sociopathy to be a mental illness while others do not, some go by legal definitions of mental illness (which sociopathy/anti-social PD does not fall under), etc. Basically, you can be mentally ill by some definitions, but still legally sane. The extent of delusions, knowledge of actions, impulse control, etc. differs greatly between things like schizophrenia to OCPD. Even within schizophrenia, you see a large range of how it is expressed. I think clearing up what each poster means by "mental illness" may help add clarity to the discussion and not so many misunderstandings.
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