Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[Ponypoor]

We do what works, what we can, and we all learn by trial and error with the help of everyone here. I’ve seen wounds I definitely wanted to suture, (my friends mink attack victim comes to mind) and some that probably should have been but weren’t and managed to heal up just fine… a rescue hat I took in half healed who was being cannibalized by her tribe (Zeta) and a few deep spur/mating injuries on hens. If I had more confidence in my stitching I might try it, I was literally thinking two or three little stitches could pull this together just fine… but the skin is so delicate… heck even on mature chickens their skin is super delicate.

My friends mink victim managed to heal up, despite the absolute worst bandaging job I have ever seen. In fact, the tear was made far worse by the first bandaging attempt by him and someone else. If he had let DH and I do it, it would have gone so much better. The wound of course got infected (filthy coop conditions) and she still survived, but as you said… with massive scarring and a now permanent bare breast where the skin had to regrow over the gaping hole (because he wouldn’t let me close the edges anywhere near each other, like a 4” patch of no skin at all)

I think with most people being stitched up the level of sterilization is much higher than we can get at home, and it’s often not super tightly closed… that’s one of the main issues people have when applying steri strips and butterfly closures on wounds themselves (they are really hard to get here now)… infections and abscesses still happen more often than you would think, DH’s worst scar was from a botched stitching job after a pacemaker replacement which resulted in a major infection, removal of the pacemaker and it’s now on his right collarbone. He’s had several open heart surgeries, and is now on pacemaker #9…

With humans the wound is cleaned and stitched and the person told to keep dry no water for 5 to 7 days depending on wound size. And of course don't lick the wound (teeheehee).

Hard to get any animal to not pick at, lick, roll in dirt, get wet their stitched wounds. Or any wound for that matter.... The living body is an amazing thing tho, and has these amazing infection fighting abilities, but of course the very young and very old are at more risk of mortality of infection complications such as sepsis.

Another complication of wounds is loss of body fluid, big wounds not only lose blood but they leak serus fluids. So getting a wounds lips together will reduce the surface area that leaks fluids.

Adhesions happen and sometimes not much one can do, my arm fracture needed surgery and then I removed the plates and screws so the wound developed adhesions, most I was able to massage out but one still remains. I am betting you are not likely to massage the wound on a chicken!! The risk is adhesions reducing leg or wing mobility.

Anyways the long and short is living organisms are amazing, and sometime despite ourselves they manage to heal more often than we think!

 

[RoyalChick]

I have a couple of questions, since you seem to be in the know:

1)How do people not get infections/abscesses when stitched up? (Yes, I clean/disinfect all wounds before closing the ones I have on chickens...but what else do we do with humans to prevent it?) I have fortunately had really good luck with healing wounds that I have stitched. One large wound - to be sure it healed inside out, I stuffed with sterile gauze dampened with saline and coated with honey. But again, only a very large & deep wound. And I used steri strips until it was close to healed, since I changed the dressing regularly.

2) How do you prevent adhesions and large patches with no feathers on non-closed wounds? (scar tissue doesn't grow feathers...please don't ask me how I know about that and adhesions. )

Have I just been really lucky and doing it all wrong?

I feel like I need to become a veterinarian and nutritionist and agronomist here. (Thinking about all of this is just plain overwhelming...and thinking I have been doing what I have managed to do...all wrong

OK. Here goes, digging up knowledge from ages ago. I will certainly owe tax at the end of this treatise on wound healing.
In people in a routine surgical situation extraordinary lengths are taken to keep the whole surgical area sterile. Obviously there is all the washing a surgeon does beforehand, sterilizing the skin before the incision, sterile implements and even things like positive pressure in the operating room so no nasties can creep in with the air. In those situations wounds are closed and typically sealed with some kind of dressing.
In a likely contaminated but relatively clean wound - think trauma - the wound is irrigated before being stitched up to clean it as much as possible. Often the surgeon will leave the stitches a little loose to prevent any pus build up, and the patient may be given antibiotics to prevent infection.
In a nasty dirty situation - think burst appendix where bowl contents is free-floating inside the abdominal cavity - the surgeons will leave what is called a 'drain' in place to allow any infection to track outside the body. A drain is often a piece of plastic tubing with holes at the end left inside the wound (a bit like a catheter if you have ever seen one of those). It can even be attached to a vacuum bottle to actively suck stuff out, or can just be left to drip. A very simple form of drain is to just leave a length of gauze or tape with the end outside. The drain is removed once the patient starts healing and once antibiotics are fully on board. But with some nasty situations a drain can be in for weeks. There is always a scar left where the drain was removed.
Finally, in wounds with a big area of tissue loss you aim for healing from below - sounds like you have experience of that one. In that situation you pack the wound to prevent it closing off with a big hole underneath. You remove the packing and replace it every day and gradually the wound gets shallower and shallower. These are wounds that sometimes require skin grafts and even if the skin does grow over will leave a scar.
In terms of adhesions I assume you mean scar tissue that prevents movement of a limb? There is another kind which is inside the body cavity and all I remember about those is a big debate about whether some of the products used during surgery to prevent infection may irritate and stimulate formation of adhesions - I think the predominant theory is that some people are just more susceptible to creating scar tissue than others.
On the kind that would limit movement that will happen if a scar forms that is too short to cover the injury and allow movement. In people I believe that the solution is to cut the 'tether' surgically and help it re-heal more slowly to increase range of movement. But that is a very old memory and for all I know there may now be drugs that help soften scar tissue. Sorry - that is really specialized plastic surgery sort of stuff!

And for all that I will contribute a tax payment of Minnie going about her busy day.
Sorry, I can’t chat now. Gotta dash, places to go. people to see. Bok bok.

 

[RoyalChick]

We do what works, what we can, and we all learn by trial and error with the help of everyone here. I’ve seen wounds I definitely wanted to suture, (my friends mink attack victim comes to mind) and some that probably should have been but weren’t and managed to heal up just fine… a rescue hat I took in half healed who was being cannibalized by her tribe (Zeta) and a few deep spur/mating injuries on hens. If I had more confidence in my stitching I might try it, I was literally thinking two or three little stitches could pull this together just fine… but the skin is so delicate… heck even on mature chickens their skin is super delicate.

My friends mink victim managed to heal up, despite the absolute worst bandaging job I have ever seen. In fact, the tear was made far worse by the first bandaging attempt by him and someone else. If he had let DH and I do it, it would have gone so much better. The wound of course got infected (filthy coop conditions) and she still survived, but as you said… with massive scarring and a now permanent bare breast where the skin had to regrow over the gaping hole (because he wouldn’t let me close the edges anywhere near each other, like a 4” patch of no skin at all)

I think with most people being stitched up the level of sterilization is much higher than we can get at home, and it’s often not super tightly closed… that’s one of the main issues people have when applying steri strips and butterfly closures on wounds themselves (they are really hard to get here now)… infections and abscesses still happen more often than you would think, DH’s worst scar was from a botched stitching job after a pacemaker replacement which resulted in a major infection, removal of the pacemaker and it’s now on his right collarbone. He’s had several open heart surgeries, and is now on pacemaker #9…

Oh and that reminds me - Kris is exactly right - sometimes you want to get the skin edges closer but not closed. The body is amazing and can close a small gap, but you can't expect the skin to regrow and meet up over a massive area. So sometimes you are just trying to get the edges in the same general vicinity.
And of course all of this is 100x more difficult in chickens!

 

[Ponypoor]

It would be wonderful if it worked that way here in California. However, the divide keeps growing as the rich get richer and common people cannot even rent a tiny 1 bedroom apartment unless there are two full time salaries. It’s nuts.

I have a theory on that and it all comes down to living within one's means.

Its only since the 1950s that home ownership has been a 'thing'. Prior to that people either lived on working farms in rural areas, or in rooming/boarding houses where they rent rooms in urban centres.

Along come post WW2 and a growing economy and this push for housing and the 'American Dream' of home ownership pushed onto them. After all banks and builders are businesses and a business is in the business of making money.

So now throw in 'loaning' money.... At compound interest (oi boy who ever thought of that idea was a Schuster) no less.

So people borrowed money to buy a house, and buy a car, and then vacations, etc.... Of course you also have all those utilities to keep your home warm/cool, lights, sewers, etc. And land tax.... You get the idea!

Now these days throw in cellular phone. Internet and television plans.... 100s of dollars added to things like housing, cars, utilities...

Of course wages don't go up as fast as cost of living, which is also something that has been 'created' for the economic condition s of our current times.

So what then happens is one of two things, we have a recession where there are minor market price corrections, or a depression where there are more widespread huge price corrections.

I was very disappointed in 2009 that the Canadian and American govt bailed out the big auto companies and other that were considered 'too big to fail'. So in my humble opinion this only prolonged the problem of a much needed huge price corrections across the markets.

I now fear for some bad economic times - people are not living within their means, too much big borrowing, too much monthly output costs. It is not sustainable.

Here in Canada the govt has started to slow up the hot housing market, and raising interest rates. But I fear it's too little too lateb

Ok whining tax, it's Caturday

And Curly McNugget looking all cute

 

[Ponypoor]

OK. Here goes, digging up knowledge from ages ago. I will certainly owe tax at the end of this treatise on wound healing.
In people in a routine surgical situation extraordinary lengths are taken to keep the whole surgical area sterile. Obviously there is all the washing a surgeon does beforehand, sterilizing the skin before the incision, sterile implements and even things like positive pressure in the operating room so no nasties can creep in with the air. In those situations wounds are closed and typically sealed with some kind of dressing.
In a likely contaminated but relatively clean wound - think trauma - the wound is irrigated before being stitched up to clean it as much as possible. Often the surgeon will leave the stitches a little loose to prevent any pus build up, and the patient may be given antibiotics to prevent infection.
In a nasty dirty situation - think burst appendix where bowl contents is free-floating inside the abdominal cavity - the surgeons will leave what is called a 'drain' in place to allow any infection to track outside the body. A drain is often a piece of plastic tubing with holes at the end left inside the wound (a bit like a catheter if you have ever seen one of those). It can even be attached to a vacuum bottle to actively suck stuff out, or can just be left to drip. A very simple form of drain is to just leave a length of gauze or tape with the end outside. The drain is removed once the patient starts healing and once antibiotics are fully on board. But with some nasty situations a drain can be in for weeks. There is always a scar left where the drain was removed.
Finally, in wounds with a big area of tissue loss you aim for healing from below - sounds like you have experience of that one. In that situation you pack the wound to prevent it closing off with a big hole underneath. You remove the packing and replace it every day and gradually the wound gets shallower and shallower. These are wounds that sometimes require skin grafts and even if the skin does grow over will leave a scar.
In terms of adhesions I assume you mean scar tissue that prevents movement of a limb? There is another kind which is inside the body cavity and all I remember about those is a big debate about whether some of the products used during surgery to prevent infection may irritate and stimulate formation of adhesions - I think the predominant theory is that some people are just more susceptible to creating scar tissue than others.
On the kind that would limit movement that will happen if a scar forms that is too short to cover the injury and allow movement. In people I believe that the solution is to cut the 'tether' surgically and help it re-heal more slowly to increase range of movement. But that is a very old memory and for all I know there may now be drugs that help soften scar tissue. Sorry - that is really specialized plastic surgery sort of stuff!

And for all that I will contribute a tax payment of Minnie going about her busy day.
Sorry, I can’t chat now. Gotta dash, places to go. people to see. Bok bok.

View attachment 3075103

And a beautiful hen wow very striking colouring

 

[RoyalChick]

And a beautiful hen wow very striking colouring

I think she is gorgeous!
After her last molt she grew in those grey spangles all over her chest. Definitely not an approved standard for her breed, but I think they are lovely!

 

[micstrachan]

I am rather taken with interesting combs.
Minnie’s all seems to sprout from one small spot on her noggin.
View attachment 3074904

She DOES have s great comb!

 

[bgmathteach]

OK. Here goes, digging up knowledge from ages ago. I will certainly owe tax at the end of this treatise on wound healing.
In people in a routine surgical situation extraordinary lengths are taken to keep the whole surgical area sterile. Obviously there is all the washing a surgeon does beforehand, sterilizing the skin before the incision, sterile implements and even things like positive pressure in the operating room so no nasties can creep in with the air. In those situations wounds are closed and typically sealed with some kind of dressing.
In a likely contaminated but relatively clean wound - think trauma - the wound is irrigated before being stitched up to clean it as much as possible. Often the surgeon will leave the stitches a little loose to prevent any pus build up, and the patient may be given antibiotics to prevent infection.
In a nasty dirty situation - think burst appendix where bowl contents is free-floating inside the abdominal cavity - the surgeons will leave what is called a 'drain' in place to allow any infection to track outside the body. A drain is often a piece of plastic tubing with holes at the end left inside the wound (a bit like a catheter if you have ever seen one of those). It can even be attached to a vacuum bottle to actively suck stuff out, or can just be left to drip. A very simple form of drain is to just leave a length of gauze or tape with the end outside. The drain is removed once the patient starts healing and once antibiotics are fully on board. But with some nasty situations a drain can be in for weeks. There is always a scar left where the drain was removed.
Finally, in wounds with a big area of tissue loss you aim for healing from below - sounds like you have experience of that one. In that situation you pack the wound to prevent it closing off with a big hole underneath. You remove the packing and replace it every day and gradually the wound gets shallower and shallower. These are wounds that sometimes require skin grafts and even if the skin does grow over will leave a scar.
In terms of adhesions I assume you mean scar tissue that prevents movement of a limb? There is another kind which is inside the body cavity and all I remember about those is a big debate about whether some of the products used during surgery to prevent infection may irritate and stimulate formation of adhesions - I think the predominant theory is that some people are just more susceptible to creating scar tissue than others.
On the kind that would limit movement that will happen if a scar forms that is too short to cover the injury and allow movement. In people I believe that the solution is to cut the 'tether' surgically and help it re-heal more slowly to increase range of movement. But that is a very old memory and for all I know there may now be drugs that help soften scar tissue. Sorry - that is really specialized plastic surgery sort of stuff!

And for all that I will contribute a tax payment of Minnie going about her busy day.
Sorry, I can’t chat now. Gotta dash, places to go. people to see. Bok bok.

View attachment 3075103

Thank you! Very informative. So, essentially, chickens heal despite my interventions, not necessarily because of them. I did not realize that surgery rooms had positive air pressure! I always though those rooms were for specialized patients, like those with TB or other highly contagious diseases! Interesting.

Wow...I wish I had half your knowledge in medicine/health/microbes!

I must say, Minnie looks just darling in this photo....with her accordion comb (what it looks like from this angle...quite different from the pic/angle of last night!), full frontal of her adorable spangles, and that lovely little Jackie Onassis hat!

 

[bgmathteach]

Update on the chicks in general, mystery chick in particular.

So,after morning chores & breakfast, I head into the room with the brooder box to say 'hi' spend some time and get more pics of'mystery chick'.

1) Mystery chick is an intrepid explorer. She is the first to manage to hop/jump/fly to the top of the brooder box & perch Unfortunately, no picture of that...as soon as she saw me coming, she hopped back down into the boX!

2) Despite having raised the brooder plate, the chicks spend as much or more time on top of it than under it. Not yet 2 weeks old and they are already becoming independent.

3) With this physical, maturational and cognitive growth is also coming an increasing need to explore and 'be high! The instant I remove them from the brooder box now, instead of cowering and staying clustered with their hatch mates....they each immediately try running, jump/flying, climbing to the nearest 'higher' spot! Sometimes generally heading in the same direction, sometimes not. Either way, initially it appears to be a 'yay! I can explore and be on top of the world' versus a 'hey, wait, where are my buddies'!

4) Whenever they hear my voice or footsteps, now instead of running under the 'protective mom' heating plate, they stand up tall with heads stretched to their utmost to see me/watch me approach!

I know I have brooded many chick in the past, but it still amazes me how quickly they learn, grow, and become increasingly independent.

Mystery chick:
I've included a couple slightly better shots of the mystery chick, and a shots of it with a Marans, so you can note the difference in leg color. (Note, I tried to get a close-up of it's leg so you could see the slight dusting of black/grey, but the camera will not focus on the leg that close

Note the slight 'dustiness' on her leg - particularly the right leg (your left viewing side) For some reason it looks a bit fuzzy in the picture. IT IS NOT fluff/fuzz/feathers

This next pic, Mystery is on the right, a BCM on the left. Notice the distinct difference in leg color...but yet 'Mystery' doesn't have yellow legs - they are, the best I can describe - 'flesh color'.

I'm wondering if @rural mouse might be right with an Olive Egger (cuckoo marans cross?) Would explain the very limited barring, and also the odd colored legs - a white legged breed crossed with a yellow legged breed???

 

[Kris5902]

OK. Here goes, digging up knowledge from ages ago. I will certainly owe tax at the end of this treatise on wound healing.

So informative! Thanks for the description. I’m always amazed at the wealth of knowledge here and sharing community.

In a likely contaminated but relatively clean wound - think trauma - the wound is irrigated before being stitched up to clean it as much as possible. Often the surgeon will leave the stitches a little loose to prevent any pus build up, and the patient may be given antibiotics to prevent infection.

I think this is the most common scenario we see when we are looking at our chickens and thinking “stitches? Should I???”. And I often think back to Shad’s experiences with the goshawk attacks. The mink attack victim I referred to probably would have been fine on her own but the attempt to bandage resulted in a large skin flap being torn loose.

In a nasty dirty situation - think burst appendix where bowl contents is free-floating inside the abdominal cavity - the surgeons will leave what is called a 'drain' in place to allow any infection to track outside the body. A drain is often a piece of plastic tubing with holes at the end left inside the wound (a bit like a catheter if you have ever seen one of those). It can even be attached to a vacuum bottle to actively suck stuff out, or can just be left to drip. A very simple form of drain is to just leave a length of gauze or tape with the end outside. The drain is removed once the patient starts healing and once antibiotics are fully on board. But with some nasty situations a drain can be in for weeks. There is always a scar left where the drain was removed.
Finally, in wounds with a big area of tissue loss you aim for healing from below - sounds like you have experience of that one. In that situation you pack the wound to prevent it closing off with a big hole underneath. You remove the packing and replace it every day and gradually the wound gets shallower and shallower. These are wounds that sometimes require skin grafts and even if the skin does grow over will leave a scar.

DH has three or four drain tube scars… they are all about finger sized and located near the bottom of his rib cage and two under the missing pacemaker scar… like someone literally poked holes in him! toss in two zipper scars from having his chest cracked, and the missing pacemaker which is 3/4”deep, 1” wide, and about 3” long and sort of looks like a burn scar… it’s surprising that he’s so comfortable in a bathing suit. Still early here so tax picture will have to wait on that one.

Turns out the ferry schedule is different on fridays an leaves earlier… so waiting on DH to get home on our first Saturday ferry at 10am. It’s a balmy 10C or 50F inside here today . Yes I know… weather whining tax too! Little fluff made it through the night just fine despite the heat plate kicking off between 2-3am. The inverter alarms and shuts down when the battery drops below 10volts. We had a bit of a rough patch transitioning from the heat plate to the human, and I know I wasn’t nearly warm enough (despite sweating up a storm under a comforter and a down duvet doubled over). Turns out I can add day old chicks to the list of things I won’t roll over during the night (kittens, cats, goats, and chickens). I’ve started up the generator, swapped out sweatpants in the cardboard box (we spilled her water on mine in the transition to human heater) and plugged the heat plate in. I’m not really seeing the mobility issues now but will wait for that second pair of hands to remove my tape and see if things are looking normal. I will admit to having been tempted to just run her out and stuff her under mama last night, but it comes back to that keeping the wound clean bit.

Well we now have sunshine so it’s time to let out all my little monsters. With luck she might even accept the chick during the day… she’s a crazy chicken. Bursts out of the broody box every morning screaming her head off then rushes back to make sure I carry her chicks for her. When they are particularly small I like to have her keep them under cover of a meat tractor etc… extra protection from the Ravens. They won’t mess with my chickens, even half grown ones but a chick would be a temptation.