Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[ChicoryBlue]

Thank you.
Well, flax seed meal is listed just ahead of the black soldier fly grubs in the Scratch and Peck. Hmmm! What do you think of that? I may try it anyway, as I do want to switch to something.

On this fatty liver disease issue. I thought I'd quote the relevant posts, but they aren't there now. I don't know much, but the little reading about the human condition - when not alcohol related, it sounds like a metabolic issue (comes along with other conditions present, i.e., insulin-resistance), and without always very well known causes for these given other conditions, these metabolic issues. And the chicken-related stuff sounds similar, as in too much carbohydrate calories - that ratio between energy and protein quote @bgmathteach posted...

So I do wonder about estrogen-inducing things which affect metabolism such as soy, but also chemicals around us and in our foods such as bisphenols (BP-A, BP-S, etc.) which (according to a radio report I just heard) appears to affect fetal lung development, more in girls than boys. These I suspect may have an affect on metabolism also, either through the effects in development or through exposure later in life. Also phthalates seem to disrupt metabolism. No amount of good chicken-keeping can prevent what's already happened to a chick or it's mother in egg formation (@micstrachan take note) if there's been exposure...

All - Does it make you consider that the better calories for chickens might be essentially a low-carb diet? Protein & fat based, at least in higher percentages to carbohydrates, than is found in traditional corn-based feed? So protein from peas - another area non-soy feeds are turning to - might be okay IF one accounts for the carbs there too?

Finally, and sorry for the long post, @Ponypoor 's posts on founder in horses also made me wonder if a diet that is supplemented with a lot of high-saccharride greens might actually not be good for chickens? That they really need to be foraging for proteins and fats, in insects and grains, and only nibble a bit on the beautiful clovers and flower leaves? So does cabbage have a lot of sugars in it? What about collards, my current favorite greens treats for the chickens?

But can chickens get keto-acidosis and live, if they go on a low-carb diet? What diet in commercial feed really replicates a real chicken's diet? And can today's hatchery stock live on that? What breeds?

 

[Ponypoor]

The 10x10

Oh that's ok then, I plan on the new run to be 10' wide but may be 12'wide depending on trees....

 

[Ponypoor]

Thank you.
Well, flax seed meal is listed just ahead of the black soldier fly grubs in the Scratch and Peck. Hmmm! What do you think of that? I may try it anyway, as I do want to switch to something.

On this fatty liver disease issue. I thought I'd quote the relevant posts, but they aren't there now. I don't know much, but the little reading about the human condition - when not alcohol related, it sounds like a metabolic issue (comes along with other conditions present, i.e., insulin-resistance), and without always very well known causes for these given other conditions, these metabolic issues. And the chicken-related stuff sounds similar, as in too much carbohydrate calories - that ratio between energy and protein quote @bgmathteach posted...

So I do wonder about estrogen-inducing things which affect metabolism such as soy, but also chemicals around us and in our foods such as bisphenols (BP-A, BP-S, etc.) which (according to a radio report I just heard) appears to affect fetal lung development, more in girls than boys. These I suspect may have an affect on metabolism also, either through the effects in development or through exposure later in life. Also phthalates seem to disrupt metabolism. No amount of good chicken-keeping can prevent what's already happened to a chick or it's mother in egg formation (@micstrachan take note) if there's been exposure...

All - Does it make you consider that the better calories for chickens might be essentially a low-carb diet? Protein & fat based, at least in higher percentages to carbohydrates, than is found in traditional corn-based feed? So protein from peas - another area non-soy feeds are turning to - might be okay IF one accounts for the carbs there too?

Finally, and sorry for the long post, @Ponypoor 's posts on founder in horses also made me wonder if a diet that is supplemented with a lot of high-saccharride greens might actually not be good for chickens? That they really need to be foraging for proteins and fats, in insects and grains, and only nibble a bit on the beautiful clovers and flower leaves? So does cabbage have a lot of sugars in it? What about collards, my current favorite greens treats for the chickens?

I think in the wild chickens will eat bugs, snakes, frogs, rodents, small birds etc.... Along with greens and seeds.

This is what I am seeing my gang eating when they are running free.

I was shocked at how vicious they can be with killing mice and snakes!!??

 

[RebeccaBoyd]

Horse people picky about the hay, picky about the feed, show up to Buckerfields in a freaking corvette… sigh. Horse people If it means I can pick up some slightly sun bleached on the exterior hay for a discount…

Corvette...I wish. Our old Ford Ranger will do well enough for hauling a small trailer or hauling hay. Do not need something fancy. I am picky about hay, I do not want anything moldy or dusty. And yes I pay 1.50 more for my square bales then a lot of people around me do. I look at it this way, the cheaper hay your lucky if it's 50lbs and my horses do not eat it, they pee and poop on it. The hay we get is between 80 to 100lb bales and it takes both hands to stack them. Not only that, not 1 single bite is wasted. In my opinion the most essential part of my boys diet is quality hay.

 

[BY Bob]

I know it is a little harsh to call her evil, and she is not. But that reaction is mild compared to if she had chicks or was farther along in the incubation period. There was 1 instance in that video of her classic "grab and twist" method, many times she has brought blood. If chicks were involved, she would have came flying at my head. I know many people who would not tolerate it. I've came to look at it this way, she is doing her job and if someone were to threaten Rosie I would be the same way. It just hurts when you are on the receiving end of her punishment. The name calling is just a way to get rid of the urge to wring her neck at times.

I wasn't trying to call you out. I get it. It's like calling a roster evil that feels he is protecting his ladies. It hurts for sure. A momma that protective of her chicks is a good thing, unless you are on the receiving end and meant no harm.

 

[bgmathteach]

He decides to spell it backwards...

Oh, so it is boB! I"ll try to remember that.

 

[BY Bob]

I will have to go out and get pictures, but thanks to fb memories I was reminded that today is Raven and Creamy's first birthday. Happy hatchday girls.

Hooray! A hatch day party!

 

[featherhead007]

I haven't seen any specific studies but everything I have read says they are good for chickens.

I was told that also.

 

[bgmathteach]

I've been looking at this, as I'm looking for more calcium, am supplementing calcium every-other day and I'm tiring of it, wondering how to instead supplement protein, less labor-intensive, as I would prefer 18%. I tested the 18% Nutrena Feather Fixer with no calcium supplementation and found it is better than all-flock but not enough calcium - started getting soft shells from one or two hens, I still think Peanut is one. Also observed that the Buckeyes love ground eggshells and do not touch the oyster shell at all. Maybe because the ground eggshells are available? They were going at some oyster shell last summer when it was spilled/scattered on the ground, I may try that.

The ingredients list on the page for the pelleted layer w/ grubs has no grubs. Fish meal, and flax meal and oil. What do you think? In error?
@micstrachan what did you say about flax?
https://www.scratchandpeck.com/shop/organic-layer-pellets-grub-protein/
"Organic Wheat, Organic Barley, Organic Peas, Organic Flaxseed Meal, Fish Meal, Ground Limestone, Organic Flaxseed Oil, Vitamin and Mineral Pre-Mix"

It lists Black Soldier Fly Grubs on the label. It is 4th or 5th in the listing. There would be way too much fat AND protien if it was the 1st ingredient

I\The attached pdf is the ingredient label.

 

[RoyalChick]

Thank you.
Well, flax seed meal is listed just ahead of the black soldier fly grubs in the Scratch and Peck. Hmmm! What do you think of that? I may try it anyway, as I do want to switch to something.

On this fatty liver disease issue. I thought I'd quote the relevant posts, but they aren't there now. I don't know much, but the little reading about the human condition - when not alcohol related, it sounds like a metabolic issue (comes along with other conditions present, i.e., insulin-resistance), and without always very well known causes for these given other conditions, these metabolic issues. And the chicken-related stuff sounds similar, as in too much carbohydrate calories - that ratio between energy and protein quote @bgmathteach posted...

So I do wonder about estrogen-inducing things which affect metabolism such as soy, but also chemicals around us and in our foods such as bisphenols (BP-A, BP-S, etc.) which (according to a radio report I just heard) appears to affect fetal lung development, more in girls than boys. These I suspect may have an affect on metabolism also, either through the effects in development or through exposure later in life. Also phthalates seem to disrupt metabolism. No amount of good chicken-keeping can prevent what's already happened to a chick or it's mother in egg formation (@micstrachan take note) if there's been exposure...

All - Does it make you consider that the better calories for chickens might be essentially a low-carb diet? Protein & fat based, at least in higher percentages to carbohydrates, than is found in traditional corn-based feed? So protein from peas - another area non-soy feeds are turning to - might be okay IF one accounts for the carbs there too?

Finally, and sorry for the long post, @Ponypoor 's posts on founder in horses also made me wonder if a diet that is supplemented with a lot of high-saccharride greens might actually not be good for chickens? That they really need to be foraging for proteins and fats, in insects and grains, and only nibble a bit on the beautiful clovers and flower leaves? So does cabbage have a lot of sugars in it? What about collards, my current favorite greens treats for the chickens?

Yes I think you are right. Let me try and summarize what I have learned having spent a few hours deep in academic articles. Hope it helps everyone. The disease is called FLHS (Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome) and I am only talking about chickens not people.

FLHS is a metabolic disease related to how the chicken metabolizes carbohydrate and fat. Like most metabolic diseases it is very multifactorial with the main factors generally recognized as contributing to it being:

• Genetics - particularly high production breeds as well as age of chicken and time of year. Basically it is associated with high laying so 'peak production' is often what stimulates the fatal event. This is where the link to estrogen comes from and why some have the hypothesis that a diet low in soy would be best. There is no experimental evidence that soy causes FLHS, but many want to reduce the use of soy for other reasons (bad for the environment, GMO etc.)
• Temperature and stress - both seem to be triggering factors
• Low exercise - this may be independent of obesity - like running around is good in its own right
• High calorie diet, particularly when the calories are mainly from carbohydrate

Several papers believe it should be renamed as Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome because not all of the cases have fatty liver or are obese.

The role of flax is poorly understood. There are papers that suggest it protects against FLHS and others that suggest it doesn't and one that suggests it is harmful. The source that said it was harmful was not a peer reviewed journal so I am now thinking maybe flax is just fine (or it is unknown). Sorry to introduce the flax red herring!

Beyond Flax which is a puzzle, the interventions that have been shown to be helpful are:

• Exercise and not over-feeding
• A diet where a lot of calories come from protein and fat
• A diet which includes Selenium - farms with multiple cases of FLHS are recommended to supplement feed with selenium. Diary like yoghurt and cottage cheese are good dietary sources of selenium
• A diet that is rich in lutein - again this can be supplemented - but comes from leafy greens like kale
• A diet that is rich in choline - corn is low in choline, wheat, barley, oats and oilseeds have more choline

Putting this all together the Scratch and Peck feed does look like it is scientifically better for FLHS than many of the others.

Phew! I really should not have read so many papers. My brain hurts!

One tidbit I picked up for @micstrachan is that FLHS is the most common cause of death in backyard flocks in Northern California!

I am going to give the Scratch and Peck food a try, but it is very costly so I may do a mix and just try and give them more meat and introduce kale on a regular basis.

Edit: Sorry folk for long post - I didn't source all the papers I read - I started reading and didn't keep track - I read about 15 papers - if anyone really wants to dig through them I can probably figure out what I read from my browser history.