Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[BY Bob]

Yes I think you are right. Let me try and summarize what I have learned having spent a few hours deep in academic articles. Hope it helps everyone. The disease is called FLHS (Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome) and I am only talking about chickens not people.

FLHS is a metabolic disease related to how the chicken metabolizes carbohydrate and fat. Like most metabolic diseases it is very multifactorial with the main factors generally recognized as contributing to it being:

• Genetics - particularly high production breeds as well as age of chicken and time of year. Basically it is associated with high laying so 'peak production' is often what stimulates the fatal event. This is where the link to estrogen comes from and why some have the hypothesis that a diet low in soy would be best. There is no experimental evidence that soy causes FLHS, but many want to reduce the use of soy for other reasons (bad for the environment, GMO etc.)
• Temperature and stress - both seem to be triggering factors
• Low exercise - this may be independent of obesity - like running around is good in its own right
• High calorie diet, particularly when the calories are mainly from carbohydrate

Several papers believe it should be renamed as Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome because not all of the cases have fatty liver or are obese.

The role of flax is poorly understood. There are papers that suggest it protects against FLHS and others that suggest it doesn't and one that suggests it is harmful. The source that said it was harmful was not a peer reviewed journal so I am now thinking maybe flax is just fine (or it is unknown). Sorry to introduce the flax red herring!

Beyond Flax which is a puzzle, the interventions that have been shown to be helpful are:

• Exercise and not over-feeding
• A diet where a lot of calories come from protein and fat
• A diet which includes Selenium - farms with multiple cases of FLHS are recommended to supplement feed with selenium. Diary like yoghurt and cottage cheese are good dietary sources of selenium
• A diet that is rich in lutein - again this can be supplemented - but comes from leafy greens like kale
• A diet that is rich in choline - corn is low in choline, wheat, barley, oats and oilseeds have more choline

Putting this all together the Scratch and Peck feed does look like it is scientifically better for FLHS than many of the others.

Phew! I really should not have read so many papers. My brain hurts!

One tidbit I picked up for @micstrachan is that FLHS is the most common cause of death in backyard flocks in Northern California!

I am going to give the Scratch and Peck food a try, but it is very costly so I may do a mix and just try and give them more meat and introduce kale on a regular basis.

Edit: Sorry folk for long post - I didn't source all the papers I read - I started reading and didn't keep track - I read about 15 papers - if anyone really wants to dig through them I can probably figure out what I read from my browser history.

Wonderful work. I love that you did this. I wonder if there is some genetic link to the chickens in Northern California and the bad gene continues to be bred and sold.

If you think about hatcheries the bad genes never get selected out whereas in the wild, chickens predisposed to this disease would die sooner and thereby reproduce less. This would limit the gene's prevalence. By artifically breeding then the way we do any genetic defect continues to be passed on.

 

[micstrachan]

Chick fix
For anyone needing a chick fix here is a video of how they play roosting shenanigans before bed even though they actually go to bed under the heat plate. I guess they are practicing for later.

In the video there is a short bit where you can see Bella continuing to practice her running and flapping. She is the only one who really does that.

And in these pictures you can see that Lulu is having a really, really bad hair day.

View attachment 3055367View attachment 3055368

In other news, raising the feeder has helped a lot. They still pull a lot out and some of it falls down to the main part of the Chicken Palace which the big Princesses appreciate.
And after her visit to the brooder, Minnie has started roosting on the roost right by it. I don’t know how that is going to work when I put the fire escape in so the chicks can come and go. I hope she doesn’t molest them too badly.

Thank you for this!

 

[micstrachan]

Yes @micstrachan you must see the Hooligans!

I checked them out! Unbelievably cute!!!

 

[micstrachan]

Hey Michelle do you have a local feed mill that makes their own feed? If so maybe you can get them to make up a feed for you?

Many horse people so this all the time. And so do lots of dairy farmers here.

Not that I know of, but good idea!

 

[micstrachan]

I've been looking at this, as I'm looking for more calcium, am supplementing calcium every-other day and I'm tiring of it, wondering how to instead supplement protein, less labor-intensive, as I would prefer 18%. I tested the 18% Nutrena Feather Fixer with no calcium supplementation and found it is better than all-flock but not enough calcium - started getting soft shells from one or two hens, I still think Peanut is one. Also observed that the Buckeyes love ground eggshells and do not touch the oyster shell at all. Maybe because the ground eggshells are available? They were going at some oyster shell last summer when it was spilled/scattered on the ground, I may try that.

The ingredients list on the page for the pelleted layer w/ grubs has no grubs. Fish meal, and flax meal and oil. What do you think? In error?
@micstrachan what did you say about flax?
https://www.scratchandpeck.com/shop/organic-layer-pellets-grub-protein/
"Organic Wheat, Organic Barley, Organic Peas, Organic Flaxseed Meal, Fish Meal, Ground Limestone, Organic Flaxseed Oil, Vitamin and Mineral Pre-Mix"

Did I say something about flax? My girls got poopy bums on sesame meal. Are you thinking of that?

 

[micstrachan]

Thank you.
Well, flax seed meal is listed just ahead of the black soldier fly grubs in the Scratch and Peck. Hmmm! What do you think of that? I may try it anyway, as I do want to switch to something.

On this fatty liver disease issue. I thought I'd quote the relevant posts, but they aren't there now. I don't know much, but the little reading about the human condition - when not alcohol related, it sounds like a metabolic issue (comes along with other conditions present, i.e., insulin-resistance), and without always very well known causes for these given other conditions, these metabolic issues. And the chicken-related stuff sounds similar, as in too much carbohydrate calories - that ratio between energy and protein quote @bgmathteach posted...

So I do wonder about estrogen-inducing things which affect metabolism such as soy, but also chemicals around us and in our foods such as bisphenols (BP-A, BP-S, etc.) which (according to a radio report I just heard) appears to affect fetal lung development, more in girls than boys. These I suspect may have an affect on metabolism also, either through the effects in development or through exposure later in life. Also phthalates seem to disrupt metabolism. No amount of good chicken-keeping can prevent what's already happened to a chick or it's mother in egg formation (@micstrachan take note) if there's been exposure...

All - Does it make you consider that the better calories for chickens might be essentially a low-carb diet? Protein & fat based, at least in higher percentages to carbohydrates, than is found in traditional corn-based feed? So protein from peas - another area non-soy feeds are turning to - might be okay IF one accounts for the carbs there too?

Finally, and sorry for the long post, @Ponypoor 's posts on founder in horses also made me wonder if a diet that is supplemented with a lot of high-saccharride greens might actually not be good for chickens? That they really need to be foraging for proteins and fats, in insects and grains, and only nibble a bit on the beautiful clovers and flower leaves? So does cabbage have a lot of sugars in it? What about collards, my current favorite greens treats for the chickens?

Wow, lots to think about here! I’ve been giving my birds lots of produce, including cabbage and carrot, which is high in sugar. It’s so hard to know what is best.

 

[micstrachan]

Yes I think you are right. Let me try and summarize what I have learned having spent a few hours deep in academic articles. Hope it helps everyone. The disease is called FLHS (Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome) and I am only talking about chickens not people.

FLHS is a metabolic disease related to how the chicken metabolizes carbohydrate and fat. Like most metabolic diseases it is very multifactorial with the main factors generally recognized as contributing to it being:

• Genetics - particularly high production breeds as well as age of chicken and time of year. Basically it is associated with high laying so 'peak production' is often what stimulates the fatal event. This is where the link to estrogen comes from and why some have the hypothesis that a diet low in soy would be best. There is no experimental evidence that soy causes FLHS, but many want to reduce the use of soy for other reasons (bad for the environment, GMO etc.)
• Temperature and stress - both seem to be triggering factors
• Low exercise - this may be independent of obesity - like running around is good in its own right
• High calorie diet, particularly when the calories are mainly from carbohydrate

Several papers believe it should be renamed as Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome because not all of the cases have fatty liver or are obese.

The role of flax is poorly understood. There are papers that suggest it protects against FLHS and others that suggest it doesn't and one that suggests it is harmful. The source that said it was harmful was not a peer reviewed journal so I am now thinking maybe flax is just fine (or it is unknown). Sorry to introduce the flax red herring!

Beyond Flax which is a puzzle, the interventions that have been shown to be helpful are:

• Exercise and not over-feeding
• A diet where a lot of calories come from protein and fat
• A diet which includes Selenium - farms with multiple cases of FLHS are recommended to supplement feed with selenium. Diary like yoghurt and cottage cheese are good dietary sources of selenium
• A diet that is rich in lutein - again this can be supplemented - but comes from leafy greens like kale
• A diet that is rich in choline - corn is low in choline, wheat, barley, oats and oilseeds have more choline

Putting this all together the Scratch and Peck feed does look like it is scientifically better for FLHS than many of the others.

Phew! I really should not have read so many papers. My brain hurts!

One tidbit I picked up for @micstrachan is that FLHS is the most common cause of death in backyard flocks in Northern California!

I am going to give the Scratch and Peck food a try, but it is very costly so I may do a mix and just try and give them more meat and introduce kale on a regular basis.

Edit: Sorry folk for long post - I didn't source all the papers I read - I started reading and didn't keep track - I read about 15 papers - if anyone really wants to dig through them I can probably figure out what I read from my browser history.

YES please. I would love the articles. What is up with northern California and FLHS? Maybe we’re all feeding them Modesto Milling!

 

[micstrachan]

So I’m looking into the scratch and peck lay pellet, and yes it is very costly, even more so than the stuff I’ve been buying. It has a minimum of 4% fat. Doesn’t seem too high?

 

[micstrachan]

Wonderful work. I love that you did this. I wonder if there is some genetic link to the chickens in Northern California and the bad gene continues to be bred and sold.

If you think about hatcheries the bad genes never get selected out whereas in the wild, chickens predisposed to this disease would die sooner and thereby reproduce less. This would limit the gene's prevalence. By artifically breeding then the way we do any genetic defect continues to be passed on.

My chicks have all been from my feed store, which sources from Privett (in New Mexico). I think the genetics are poor, but I really think there must be a problem with the feed, as well. I think I’ll try one of those $49, 25# bags of scratch and peck lay pellets.

 

[MaryJanet]

Oh this makes so much sense since all my reading. There was lots about biotin metabolism in some of the papers.
It is so encouraging to see the positive effect.
One day I would love to know Dr Mark’s view in animal protein, soy, and corn!

I'll try to remember to ask him next time a pair of hens go for a check up.