Norway's Sad Tragedy

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I dunno, I feel like we've had more than our fair share of domestic terrorists, especially those on the far Right Wing.

Funny how only right-wingers get all the attention. Sure, they do more dramatic stuff, but I'm fairly sure that far-Left communist and radical environmentalist organizations have killed more people and destroyed more property, especially during the Cold War era.

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Its because, most medias are in the left.
 
I'm curious on several accounts.

One, why do you think he's not mentally ill? Because he is capable of planning? Because he seems cool and calm?

I think people have stereotypes about a mentally ill person being poorly dressed and with messy hair and eyes darting around, raving and grabbing at invisible things in the air. There are other kinds of mental illness other than TV Movie Mental Illness. A person can look and act very normal and plan something for years, and be extremely sick.

Two, why do you think Norway is lenient, will rehabilitate him and let him go?

I have already consulted with a friend who has studied Norwegian law. It is not my area of knowledge, so I asked him.

He says this guy will never get out. Ever. He will never be rehabilitated. He will never be considered 'safe' to let go even if he agrees to take psychiatric medication. He's just too manipulative and too good at hiding his plans.

My friend does not see Norwegian law in murder and mass murder as lenient, either. He told me in fact he sees Norwegian law as in some respects tougher than ours in this particular area. Many crimes that would be called manslaughter in this country, he says would be murder in Norway. He says the penalties are much longer there for many crimes.

People who are mentally ill can plan something for years.

It is not whether one can plan or not, it is what sort of thing one plans to do!

One of the sickest people I ever met committed an act of terrorism that required a fair amount of planning. It's not whether one can plan or not, but what one plans to do!

I would not suggest anyone worry about the guy being given leniency because he is 'sick in the head'.

That isn't going to happen.
 
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Maximum prison sentence in Norway is supposedly 21 years from all the articles I've read on the subject. Wouldn't that be awful? I don't really believe in changing the rules of a legal system to make an exception for one individual but after something like this? Almost seems you have to. Hopefully there is something around it or the news articles I read were misleading.
 
That may be, but my friend told me that 'maximum' thing won't apply in this guy's case.

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I dont know. Just because someone plans something evil, (like this incident), does not always mean they are mentally ill.

I honestly have no clue about this guy though. He may be mentally ill and he may not be. Has he got an eval from a head doc yet?
 
That isn't what I said, Redhen.

I said just because someone can PLAN(anything), doesn't remove the possibility that they're mentally ill. Mentally ill people make elaborate plans all the time. Mentally ill people can also reason and use logic and do all sorts of things. They may be lucid at some times and not lucid at others.

However, what you said, just because someone plans something evil, doesn't mean they're mentally ill - again, it might, it might not.

Again it depends on what they planned and how they responded when caught and what they were thinking about it.

If a person plans to blow up a bridge because if he blows it up, the allied troops will be protected from an attack by the enemy in World War II, he's probably not mentally ill. If he blows up a bridge because someone pays him a million dollars and he's assured the bridge will be closed at the time and no one will be killed, probably not crazy, just greedy. If he's a US government covert assasin who kills Al Quaida operatives because he feels he must to protect his countrymen, probably not nuts.

If he blows up a bridge while shooting children because he believes Norway should be in a war with Austria, because Austria was invaded by the Turks 2000 years ago, well, that sounds pretty insane.

And there are cases where a mental illness isn't REALLY the reason or the source of the crime, but it's a factor. For example, a fellow is bipolar, and he goes off his medication. That means his judgement is JUST off enough, that he decides it'd be a really cool idea to rob a bank and of course he won't get caught. He didn't hallucinate God telling him to rob the bank, he didn't just have an outburst and do it on impulse, but the mental illness was a little bit of a factor in the crime.

His lawyer says he is mentally ill, and I don't know if this is true, but the guy supposedly refused to speak to a psychiatrist.

And that's typical, frankly. In general, the more they resist seeing a psychiatrist, the more they act like they did the world a favor, the more likely they are mentally ill. You saw how Loughner acted after the Arizona shooting? He was grinning from ear to ear. He was so proud of what he did. Nuts. Completely.

With the norwegian shooter, actually, I think the 'I know it's terrible to kill people but I have to make a statement' talk is very typical too, and all part of his delusional system.

But for me, reading his manifesto was all I needed to do to know that this guy's bats aren't all in the belfrey. It reads like every othe 'psychotic manifesto' I ever read. And I've read a fair number, actually.

I saw an interview with his parents, and I think that they have known for a long time that there was something very wrong with him. I just got that impression.

However, it is not at all unusual for a person to become mentally ill in their early 30's.

My friend's husband was 'odd' from the time he was born. He was distant and in his own world but got very good grades in school.

He started getting odder at about 20 or so, more isolated, but he held down a job and did rather well til he hit 30 or so. Then the wheels fell off the wagon.

His family left him in charge of the family business, as they had done ten years before that, and when they came back home he was in the hospital on an emergency admission, courtesy the police.

On the other hand I have seen people just collapse at 16. or 10. Or 4. Or 2. It happens when it happens.

HOW they collapse, is different for each person. Some people simply lie down in a bed and don't get up, wash, use the bathroom or talk. Some of them get very depressed, some get excited and energetic. OThers start planning an incredibly elaborate plot.
 
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A Norwegian guy blew off a bomb in the city of Oslo, Norway, to attract the police and emergency squads, then he dressed up as a policeman, took a boat to an island holding a kid's camp, and shot about 93 people, mostly children.

He had planned it very carefully over a period of about two years.

He had some convictions for minor crimes before this, but nothing major.

Many people here don't think he is mentally ill. He's neatly groomed, blond and blue eyed, and sounds intelligent and seemed very cool and calm while he was doing all this.

I read his manifesto.

I think he's mentally ill.

For me, that he planned it, that he is neatly dressed and speaks intelligently, that he is blond and blue eyed, that he attacked people in his own country, that the press went ga ga when they found out he had right wing political affiliations...I am not persuaded by those things, I still think he's mentally ill. There were things in his manifesto, not just the content but the style of writing, that convinced me.

I think that much of the refusal to consider mental illness in this guy, lies in the fear of a mentally ill person getting found 'not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect', and then getting turned loose and killing another bunch of people.

By the way, the 21 year maximum prison sentence can be increased. Every five years the authorities simply deem him a continuing danger to the public. THat part of it is very simple.

Norwegians are already crying out very, very loudly that they don't want this guy to ever see the light of day again.
 
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OH! I found a translation of Norway's mental health laws.

And actually, they have ample law for detention of the mentally ill criminal.

I will have to finish reading all the different mental health acts, but my friend told me that they have provisions for continuing detention of th e mentally ill.

Actually, so far, finding the guy mentally ill actually sounds like a better option there.
 
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Norway does not have the death penalty, nor life imprisonment. It is possible to be locked up for life, but the premise for that is criminal insanity and it is a complicated process, renewing for five years at a time.


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I do not think he is mentally ill in the sense of the law, based on accounts he has made himself, his friends and family and others who have interacted with him and the accounts from witnesses and police. There is an abundance of information available about him, that is NOT counting his own planted accounts designed for the gallery.
I do think he has a diagnosis or two (narcissistic PD, certainly), but none that constitute being legally insane in Norway. The term used is "strafferettslig tilregnelig" which loosely means wether a person was mentally capable of controlling his or her own actions, understanding right and wrong and understanding the implications of their acts. If one is not capable of these things because of a self-induced state (drugs) it does not apply.
ABB was not psychotic nor unconscious while he commited these acts. A psychosis is the only reasonable plea when it comes to this case, it may be argued that his ideas of the Knights Templars he believed to be a part of was a psychotic belief, but that is not correct in the medical (psychiatric) view. It is not a figment of his imagination, it is simply his political, ideological and religious view. A psychosis can not be claimed when the belief has such a firm historic basis, and we can not determie that the meeting(s) he says he attended did not in fact take place. He has stated that he expects most people to hate him for what he has done, that he expected to be shot or arrested before even making it to Utøya, that he will spend the rest of his life incarcerated and he also expected to be shot on the way to or from court. He understands perfectly what he has done and has stated that it was "awful but necessary" from his point of view.
I would be extremely surprised if the psychiatrist(s) that will be examine him come to the conclusion that he is psychotic. The unconsciousness plea can not be made as this was planned far ahead.

Two, why do you think Norway is lenient, will rehabilitate him and let him go?

Norway does not have the death penalty and a law with retrospective effect will not be made. He will not be (officially) executed, that is 100% certain.
Now, for the punishment - that is complex and I will not pretend to understand it fully. We have a maximum penalty of 21 years imprisonment. A Norwegian prison year is 9 months, so 21 years amounts to roughly 15,7 years.
Then there is the psychiatric observation and treatment option, for people who are not considered to be responsible for their own acts (insanity plea). This is complex, in some ways much more lenient but it has the potential to last much, much longer - possibly life. The problem here is that the laws regarding mandatory mental care are far too lenient as well. A few days before this happened, one of my closest neighbours, a very disturbed man, bludgeoned his foster mother to death. He has been in and out of mental hospitals since he was in his teens and his family said he should have been under mandatory care full time instead of just mandatory medication as he was. On the other hand we have a tremendous focus in our media on the psychiatric care system being far too forceful against patients, outcry about ECT and medication against patients will. People do not grasp the concept of mental illness and both politicians and health care workers are caught in the middle. darn if you do, darn if you don't.

We need life imprisonment and we need insane asylums for KEEPING the insane locked away. We have neither, and the result is that most wackjobs make it back onto the streets.

Now, to make it more complicated, there has been talk of indicting him for crimes against humanity, but this is a new law and has not yet been tried so I do not fully understand what that would mean. It has a max penalty of 30 years, but there is more to it that I am not familiar with.


The rehabilitation aspect of this, is that this is always the goal of the Norwegian system. To modify people's mindset before they are released. One could argue that one must be insane in one way or the other to commit murder, rape, assault, child molestation, etc. Most of these people can not be rehabilitated of course, but they are still let back on the streets when their sentence is up. The law is the law. If they ARE put under mandatory psychiatric treatment that is far from a guarantee, as I mentioned - the laws are too strict and the second the psychiatrist in charge decides the person is no longer exhbiting illness serious enough to warrant mandatory treatment, the patient must be released. One example is the "tram killer" from 2004, a Somali man who was psyhotic (possibly due to chewing khat), hearing voices telling him to kill, and drew a knife at several people on a tram, killing one and injuring five, was released after 19 months.


The picture that is painted of Norway as a peaceful, idyllic and peace-loving place is an illusion. We are exploding with murders, public shooting, robberies, gang rapes, assault rapes, home invasions, public and widespread drug problems, prostitutes in the streets and pirate taxis with rapist drivers. We are coming apart at the seams and the few who feel safe are forever repeating the mantra of "I will not be scared into locking my own door". The PMs claim that we will not be naive is in itself naive.

Norway is a sham. While we are far from as unsafe as the US or other European countries, remember we are a tiny country with a wide spead population and only 5 million people, yet we are fast catching up with serious crime and public lack of safety, all the while our laws are constricting the publics means AND WILL to defend themselves.
"The cake is a lie."

*rant done*



ABB will most likely be released, unless some loophole is found, which I doubt. A case of this magnitude has not been expected or planned for, as Norway in its trademark naivite has shoved its head in the sand and said "not here". We are bombing Libya to pieces, publishing caricature drawings, backing the US and EU in everything they ask, but who could possibly want to hurt little ol' innocent us?
If and when he is released, he will have full police protection, as he will then have served his time and be a citizen like any other. He will never be able to do anything like this again of course, as he will be watched every step he makes. But he WILL likely be very much at risk of being assasinated while incarcerated or upon his release.​
 

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