Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[Ponypoor]

I hope the hawk recognize the danger she poses to it and decides that there are much less risky targets elsewhere.

I heard the hawk before I saw it. I think you can hear it talking in the video. Hard to believe that I now recognize the sounds they make.

Yes and you are likely more in tune with the crows ravens and Jays calling also. They are good at alerting danger.

 

[Ponypoor]

I think it's thirsty Thursday is it not?

My critters are too lazy to go to nice fresh water - they would rather drink in a muddy puddle!

 

[bgmathteach]

You do not suck at taking care of chickens. Do not draw that conclusion.
It is worth reading the Merck Veterinary manual on the condition. You might consider changing their feed and supplementing selenium based on that.
I am so very sorry you lost her.

I have a thought after reading Mereks (thanks @RoyalChick ) @BY Bob or @RoyalChick - with your medical backgound, please feel free to correct or modify my **ASSUMPTION* here. (please humor me with the wordy history/progression here.)

So, the first year I raised chickens, when I processed (actually had someone help me since I couldn't 'do the deed') the 'extra' boys and a female, the person helping me commented about 'how fat' my birds were...they had quite the fat padding in the abdomen. Clearly, I was overdoing the treats and such. I cut down significantly the next year....when I processed the 'extra' ones that next fall a few were still a bit fat, and some of their livers were that lighter color.

But then, I switched to organic, low soy diet (soy free organic couldn't be gotten locally, and was HIGHLY expensive shipped, so my compromise was a mix of online ordered soy free organic& local purchased organic. I now process many more birds than those first few years each fall. I have only had a few who have shown signs in their liver of off coloring...and some extra fat in the years since. Almost all have been older girls (3.5 or 4.5 y.o.), and usually the 'lazier/less active ones'.

Since fatty liver is tied to estrogen and laying, could the following be factors:
1) breeding for overproduction (hence more estrogen?)
2) Feed with Soy as the major protien source? (Soy has phytoestrogens (?sp?)...mimics estrogen in humans...could it 'raise' estrogen levels/effects in hens, too?)

So, essentially what I am postulating (asking for input on this) is: could a big part of the problem be a combination of genetics (bred for production) and the amount of SOY in their diet combining to create and much higher estrogen load than natural - hence causing this condition in many hens?

 

[RoyalChick]

I don’t know,, Bob. Access to feed all the tome while they are penned up? All the necropsies I’ve had done besides Ruby revealed excess body fat. I think it is more common than we all think.

I have started looking at feed labels. Most of the contents is very similar between brands - but it is the % crude fat in the feed that varies the most. Purina has 2.5% crude and a brand I picked up at PetCo because I had a surprise shortfall and didn't have time to go to TSC had 3.5% crude fat. It doesn't sound like a lot but it is 40% more fat than the Purina.
Kalmbach brand has 3% and Healthy Harvest has 4% (double the fat of Purina).
All I am saying is maybe your brand is higher in fat than it should be. And yes, they need to exercise, but you are doing everything possible about that.

 

[RoyalChick]

I think it's thirsty Thursday is it not?

My critters are too lazy to go to nice fresh water - they would rather drink in a muddy puddle!

View attachment 3052942

But that puddle is the nice water silly!

 

[RoyalChick]

I have a thought after reading Mereks (thanks @RoyalChick ) @BY Bob or @RoyalChick - with your medical backgound, please feel free to correct or modify my **ASSUMPTION* here. (please humor me with the wordy history/progression here.)

So, the first year I raised chickens, when I processed (actually had someone help me since I couldn't 'do the deed') the 'extra' boys and a female, the person helping me commented about 'how fat' my birds were...they had quite the fat padding in the abdomen. Clearly, I was overdoing the treats and such. I cut down significantly the next year....when I processed the 'extra' ones that next fall a few were still a bit fat, and some of their livers were that lighter color.

But then, I switched to organic, low soy diet (soy free organic couldn't be gotten locally, and was HIGHLY expensive shipped, so my compromise was a mix of online ordered soy free organic& local purchased organic. I now process many more birds than those first few years each fall. I have only had a few who have shown signs in their liver of off coloring...and some extra fat in the years since. Almost all have been older girls (3.5 or 4.5 y.o.), and usually the 'lazier/less active ones'.

Since fatty liver is tied to estrogen and laying, could the following be factors:
1) breeding for overproduction (hence more estrogen?)
2) Feed with Soy as the major protien source? (Soy has phytoestrogens (?sp?)...mimics estrogen in humans...could it 'raise' estrogen levels/effects in hens, too?)

So, essentially what I am postulating (asking for input on this) is: could a big part of the problem be a combination of genetics (bred for production) and the amount of SOY in their diet combining to create and much higher estrogen load than natural - hence causing this condition in many hens?

I have no idea, but it sounds plausible. Soy is a big part of commercial chicken food because it is cheap. Fatty live is as you say is associated with estrogen and indeed soy binds to estrogen receptors - so this sounds quite logical to me.
I don't have time right now, but I may rootle around looking for some academic studies on the topic. The only brand I see available has flax and I am sure I read somewhere that is also not great for the chickens themselves.
Oh I have some research to do!

 

[Ponypoor]

We’ll send some Cassowary eggs over.

Have heard of your cassowary! They can be dangerous! I love their feet, awesome legs and feet!

 

[bgmathteach]

I have started looking at feed labels. Most of the contents is very similar between brands - but it is the % crude fat in the feed that varies the most. Purina has 2.5% crude and a brand I picked up at PetCo because I had a surprise shortfall and didn't have time to go to TSC had 3.5% crude fat. It doesn't sound like a lot but it is 40% more fat than the Purina.
Kalmbach brand has 3% and Healthy Harvest has 4% (double the fat of Purina).
All I am saying is maybe your brand is higher in fat than it should be. And yes, they need to exercise, but you are doing everything possible about that.

I got the opposite from reading Mereks Now I am really confused.
Fatty Live - Mereks

"Experimentally, most attempts to prevent or treat the condition have been made through dietary modification. Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat, while not increasing the energy content of the diet, seems to be beneficial. Presumably such modification means the liver needs to synthesize less fat for yolk."

Not sure exactly what this means:
" A wide energy/ protein ratio in the diet will aggravate FLHS."

Selenium, Vit. E, etc:
"Various byproduct feeds such as distiller’s grains, fish meal, and alfalfa meal reduce the incidence of FLHS. Supplementation with selenium also has been shown to reduce FLHS, but the mode of action is unclear. When a farm has a history of FLHS, the diet should contain at least 0.3 ppm selenium, ideally as organic selenium, and up to 100 IU vitamin E/kg diet, with appropriate levels of an antioxidant such as ethoxyquin. There are reports of layers having greater incidence of fatty liver when fed chelated trace minerals versus conventional inorganic minerals. However, the relation between the increased organic minerals in layer diets and the incidence of FLHS is unknown. These various additives collectively help to limit the occurrence of tissue rancidity and thus hemorrhage of the excess fat in the liver."

 

[bgmathteach]

Ohhh....I just checked something...this is something I have been adding for the last few years to my chicken's feed/diet...maybe this is a factor, too?

"Brewer's yeast is a rich source of minerals -- particularly selenium; protein; B-complex vitamins, and chromium, an essential trace mineral that helps the body maintain normal blood sugar levels. Brewer's yeast tastes bitter and should not be confused with baker's yeast, nutritional yeast, or torula yeast."

 

[RoyalChick]

I got the opposite from reading Mereks Now I am really confused.
Fatty Live - Mereks

"Experimentally, most attempts to prevent or treat the condition have been made through dietary modification. Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat, while not increasing the energy content of the diet, seems to be beneficial. Presumably such modification means the liver needs to synthesize less fat for yolk."

Not sure exactly what this means:
" A wide energy/ protein ratio in the diet will aggravate FLHS."

Selenium, Vit. E, etc:
"Various byproduct feeds such as distiller’s grains, fish meal, and alfalfa meal reduce the incidence of FLHS. Supplementation with selenium also has been shown to reduce FLHS, but the mode of action is unclear. When a farm has a history of FLHS, the diet should contain at least 0.3 ppm selenium, ideally as organic selenium, and up to 100 IU vitamin E/kg diet, with appropriate levels of an antioxidant such as ethoxyquin. There are reports of layers having greater incidence of fatty liver when fed chelated trace minerals versus conventional inorganic minerals. However, the relation between the increased organic minerals in layer diets and the incidence of FLHS is unknown. These various additives collectively help to limit the occurrence of tissue rancidity and thus hemorrhage of the excess fat in the liver."

Oh you are right - I misread it - it is counter-intuitive. More fat in the diet is better. Who woulda thunk it?!
Meanwhile, I did find the flax seed reference - it is great at adding omega 3 to eggs but prolonged use of flax seed in the feed increases fatty liver.
I found one study on soy-based vs soy-free feeds and it specifically mntioned there were no differences in the livers.