Fluffy Butt Acres: Stories of our flock

[ValarieF]

Oh I forgot to mention, one of the Ancona hens landed on my arm and I petted her. Zeus didnt attack me. Usually he does when one of his hens lands on me.

 

[lightm]

Everyone except poor Bolt View attachment 3432665
Oh, but her beak is really bothering me. I don't want to spend a million dollars on the vet, but they may know what to do....
She hated it when I filed her beak, but I feel like I should try more.
I have a dremel, but I worry that I will hurt her.
If I stop at the quick, can I trim her beak with dog nail clippers?
I just worry that her beak is getting worse and that she is not as comfortable as she could/should be.

@Shadrach is an expert and hopefully he will chime in. I believe the beak will be too sensitive to be trimmed by a dog nail clipper. It sounds like you are already doing the right thing and keep filing even if she doesn't enjoy it.

 

[lightm]

So, @BY Bob My take-away from this article is: it is a leaky vaccine, that has at least helped Mareks become more deadly (hot), but, you don't want to not vaccinate (at least if you are a commercial enterprise), because essentially, any unvaccinated chicken will die if exposed, and it will be exposed (or there will be exposure - maybe the better way to put it) in a commercial hatchery.

Is that take-away correct? And, if so, where does that leave backyard farmers? And, this means I essentially have endangered my future hatches by having vaccinated birds, as it sounds like there is some immunity passed from mother to chick, but not clear how strong...and that since I have vaccinated, I can't ever bring in unvaccinated birds, without essentially giving them a death sentence? Yes? No?

Hmmm, Is the vaccination a good thing or not, and does it mean I HAVE to vaccinate all newbies to me (chicks ordered/bought) for them to survive...since the vaccinated shed the virus?

And if this is the case, since all of my birds have been vaccinated (except for hatched on site), why did my tests for Marek's come back negative (3 different swabs of 3 different coops)?

Now I am really confused!

@RoyalChick @BY Bob ?

Yes, Bob, I know you said you needed time to put something together - I'm not rushing you, just trying to piece this together in my mind.

I think the vaccinated chickens DON'T NECESSARILY carry and shed virus. They can. If your tests came back negative, it sounds like you are fine.

I have read a thread, perhaps a quite famous one, talking about her battle with Marek disease. Basically she had chickens kept dying. She learned it was Marek, which was present in a very big area including her yard. One day, she saw Amish having chickens in the Marek infected area near her and she basically learned that the Amish raised Marek resistant chickens. She got chicks from the Amish and has been doing well.

I will try to find the thread or post.

 

[RoyalChick]

Here goes. Sorry for long post - I am going to take a swing at the Marek's vaccine issue.
I am going to put it all in a spoiler - not because it is icky, but because it is long and nerdy and that will make it easier for folk to just skip over it if they don't want to engage in it.

Spoiler: Long nerdy post

The basic issue being debated is whether the vaccination of birds against Marek's has allowed the virus to become more virulent and therefore make the disease more serious when caught by unvaccinated birds.
This is the view that is held by Andrew Read who is the author of the paper that was cited in the pbs piece that has already been posted. That study is from 2015.
The other major study is from the Roslin Institute in 2020 and shows the opposite. I will link that study at the end.
The theory that leaky vaccines can allow the virus they protect against to become more virulent has been around for forever and has its proponents in the viral and vaccine community. I don't think any study in any species has yet found it to be the case apart from the Read paper everyone saw in the pbs article.
That doesn't mean it isn't true, and Marek's and chickens have some unique characteristics that may make it true here. But it does mean you shouldn't jump and immediately believe the pbs conclusions.

I will try and describe the theory and why it may not be super relevant to us as backyard flock keepers, but first a few basics that I think get overlooked in the general worry about Marek's.

None of the studies are about a vaccinated chicken giving Marek's to an unvaccinated chicken. I have not read that anybody involved in the science of this believes that to be an issue.
In both studies the vaccinated chickens have to be given Marek's disease for the experiment. They don't have it just because they are vaccinated, they are purposely infected with it by the researchers.
The vaccine is described as 'leaky', but that does not mean that a vaccinated chicken is infecting other chickens.
What leaky means in this situation is that the vaccinated individual can still catch the disease.

Typically, when a vaccinated chicken catches Marek's - for example by meeting an infected chicken or moving to a location with Marek's in the coop - they will not show any symptoms or only have mild symptoms.
However, when that vaccinated, and now also diseased, chicken encounters an unvaccinated chicken who is not already infected, it could give that unvaccinated chicken the disease.
That would not likely be a dynamic within an existing flock, because the vaccinated chicken had to catch the disease from somewhere, and their unvaccinated flock-mates would be exposed to the same source.

But it is why you need to be careful about introducing new adult birds who might have been exposed to Marek's (even if they are vaccinated) to a flock that are not all vaccinated.
An example of the kind of thing backyard folk could worry about would be:
- Vaccinated chicken goes to a show and is exposed to Marek's
- The vaccinated show-chicken comes home from the show and is put back in the flock which includes unvaccinated individuals
- The vaccinated chicken then infects their unvaccinated flock mates
Now to the issue of increasing virulence. The basic theory that Andrew Read is supporting goes like this:
- Unmanaged the most virulent virus would wipe out the entire flock very rapidly. The virus would then have to go dormant in the soil because it killed all the chickens so it can't keep replicating as it needs the chicken to replicate.
- However, a vaccinated chicken allows the virus to keep on living because they don't die so they allow the virus to stay alive and replicating.
- Every time the virus replicates the possibility that a mistake gets made in its replication occurs and some of those mistakes might cause the virus to become more virulent. This is exactly like all the variants of Covid that kept emerging - they were all new versions resulting from replication mistakes and some were more virulent.
- Over millions and billions of replications it becomes possible that the newer, possibly more virulent strain takes over from the prior strain.
- And so, according to the theory, that is why Marek's has become more virulent over time.

One issue with the theory is that there is no reason why the mistakes in replication should make it more rather than less virulent. The mistakes are random, and evolutionary theory would suggest it should become less virulent over time.
Who knows? We have two studies one suggests that it gets more virulent and one that suggests the opposite.

In the classic words of all research papers (and why I decided not to be a research scientist!) "More research is needed"!

Now why I think this is not a huge worry for backyard flocks. We are talking about evolution of the virus. Even in viruses evolution requires lots and lots of replications. The commercial chicken industry provides a perfect environment for that to happen - massive numbers of birds in close quarters allowing the virus to replicate over and over and move between hosts possibly swapping DNA with different strains etc. I don't have any paper to back this up, but I don't see this happening in a few generations of flocks with tens of birds (vs hundreds of thousands, even millions of birds).

Hopefully that addresses some of the issues, and here is a link to the Roslin Institute paper from 2020: https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2020/leaky-vaccines-part-in-marek-s-disease-management

 

[rural mouse]

Everytime I go out they swarm me like they never eat. I just took them some treat and collected about 60 eggs. Ive been to weak to collect lately. If I go inside they go inside if I go out they come out. lol like a train of chickens.

It's really weird when you walk across the yard and hear thubbidy from multiple directions behind you. I haven't been able to get a pic of this....yet...

 

[RoyalChick]

I think the vaccinated chickens DON'T NECESSARILY carry and shed virus. They can. If your tests came back negative, it sounds like you are fine.

Exactly right. The vaccinated chickens only carry and shed virus if they actually get infected. If they get infected they can indeed carry and shed but first they have to get infected, they do not do the carrying and shedding because of the vaccine.

 

[lightm]

Or Republihens.

You are quite into it, aren't you?

I like Republihens!!!

 

[Ponypoor]

Everyone except poor Bolt View attachment 3432665
Oh, but her beak is really bothering me. I don't want to spend a million dollars on the vet, but they may know what to do....
She hated it when I filed her beak, but I feel like I should try more.
I have a dremel, but I worry that I will hurt her.
If I stop at the quick, can I trim her beak with dog nail clippers?
I just worry that her beak is getting worse and that she is not as comfortable as she could/should be.

You can try trimming very carefully, very very carefully - very very very carefully

I was laughing so hard at this!! BBQ, Bolt, and Willow will vote for her, but Splotch may run herself! She can be very scary! Pastel follows whatever she says!

Spooky SplotchView attachment 3432668

I like Splotch, she is wonderful

Everytime I go out they swarm me like they never eat. I just took them some treat and collected about 60 eggs. Ive been to weak to collect lately. If I go inside they go inside if I go out they come out. lol like a train of chickens.

Food motivated, someone is giving too many treats

She is a cross between my black silkie hen and my little golden polish/silkie cross, Angel. Her colors turned out to be a very pretty combination of the two!

View attachment 3432615View attachment 3432613
Apologies for the quality of the photos, it was also a very blustery day, Angel’s feathers were all flying around haha

Oh I forgot to mention, one of the Ancona hens landed on my arm and I petted her. Zeus didnt attack me. Usually he does when one of his hens lands on me.

Wonderful

 

[lightm]

Here goes. Sorry for long post - I am going to take a swing at the Marek's vaccine issue.
I am going to put it all in a spoiler - not because it is icky, but because it is long and nerdy and that will make it easier for folk to just skip over it if they don't want to engage in it.

Spoiler: Long nerdy post

The basic issue being debated is whether the vaccination of birds against Marek's has allowed the virus to become more virulent and therefore make the disease more serious when caught by unvaccinated birds.
This is the view that is held by Andrew Read who is the author of the paper that was cited in the pbs piece that has already been posted. That study is from 2015.
The other major study is from the Roslin Institute in 2020 and shows the opposite. I will link that study at the end.
The theory that leaky vaccines can allow the virus they protect against to become more virulent has been around for forever and has its proponents in the viral and vaccine community. I don't think any study in any species has yet found it to be the case apart from the Read paper everyone saw in the pbs article.
That doesn't mean it isn't true, and Marek's and chickens have some unique characteristics that may make it true here. But it does mean you shouldn't jump and immediately believe the pbs conclusions.

I will try and describe the theory and why it may not be super relevant to us as backyard flock keepers, but first a few basics that I think get overlooked in the general worry about Marek's.

None of the studies are about a vaccinated chicken giving Marek's to an unvaccinated chicken. I have not read that anybody involved in the science of this believes that to be an issue.
In both studies the vaccinated chickens have to be given Marek's disease for the experiment. They don't have it just because they are vaccinated, they are purposely infected with it by the researchers.
The vaccine is described as 'leaky', but that does not mean that a vaccinated chicken is infecting other chickens.
What leaky means in this situation is that the vaccinated individual can still catch the disease.

Typically, when a vaccinated chicken catches Marek's - for example by meeting an infected chicken or moving to a location with Marek's in the coop - they will not show any symptoms or only have mild symptoms.
However, when that vaccinated, and now also diseased, chicken encounters an unvaccinated chicken who is not already infected, it could give that unvaccinated chicken the disease.
That would not likely be a dynamic within an existing flock, because the vaccinated chicken had to catch the disease from somewhere, and their unvaccinated flock-mates would be exposed to the same source.

But it is why you need to be careful about introducing new adult birds who might have been exposed to Marek's (even if they are vaccinated) to a flock that are not all vaccinated.
An example of the kind of thing backyard folk could worry about would be:
- Vaccinated chicken goes to a show and is exposed to Marek's
- The vaccinated show-chicken comes home from the show and is put back in the flock which includes unvaccinated individuals
- The vaccinated chicken then infects their unvaccinated flock mates
Now to the issue of increasing virulence. The basic theory that Andrew Read is supporting goes like this:
- Unmanaged the most virulent virus would wipe out the entire flock very rapidly. The virus would then have to go dormant in the soil because it killed all the chickens so it can't keep replicating as it needs the chicken to replicate.
- However, a vaccinated chicken allows the virus to keep on living because they don't die so they allow the virus to stay alive and replicating.
- Every time the virus replicates the possibility that a mistake gets made in its replication occurs and some of those mistakes might cause the virus to become more virulent. This is exactly like all the variants of Covid that kept emerging - they were all new versions resulting from replication mistakes and some were more virulent.
- Over millions and billions of replications it becomes possible that the newer, possibly more virulent strain takes over from the prior strain.
- And so, according to the theory, that is why Marek's has become more virulent over time.

One issue with the theory is that there is no reason why the mistakes in replication should make it more rather than less virulent. The mistakes are random, and evolutionary theory would suggest it should become less virulent over time.
Who knows? We have two studies one suggests that it gets more virulent and one that suggests the opposite.

In the classic words of all research papers (and why I decided not to be a research scientist!) "More research is needed"!

Now why I think this is not a huge worry for backyard flocks. We are talking about evolution of the virus. Even in viruses evolution requires lots and lots of replications. The commercial chicken industry provides a perfect environment for that to happen - massive numbers of birds in close quarters allowing the virus to replicate over and over and move between hosts possibly swapping DNA with different strains etc. I don't have any paper to back this up, but I don't see this happening in a few generations of flocks with tens of birds (vs hundreds of thousands, even millions of birds).

Hopefully that addresses some of the issues, and here is a link to the Roslin Institute paper from 2020: https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2020/leaky-vaccines-part-in-marek-s-disease-management

Very impressive. Really well written!

Does virulent means transmit better and faster? If so, I don't think leaky marek is doing that. Since the virus can live in vaccinated chickens, evolution theory can argue that they'd evolve to be able to the harm the current vaccinated chickens, hence more dangerous.

But I can also see that since the virus is allowed to live, they should remain happy and content and the evolution is more random.

 

[BY Bob]

So, @BY Bob My take-away from this article is: it is a leaky vaccine, that has at least helped Mareks become more deadly (hot), but, you don't want to not vaccinate (at least if you are a commercial enterprise), because essentially, any unvaccinated chicken will die if exposed, and it will be exposed (or there will be exposure - maybe the better way to put it) in a commercial hatchery.

Is that take-away correct? And, if so, where does that leave backyard farmers? And, this means I essentially have endangered my future hatches by having vaccinated birds, as it sounds like there is some immunity passed from mother to chick, but not clear how strong...and that since I have vaccinated, I can't ever bring in unvaccinated birds, without essentially giving them a death sentence? Yes? No?

I promise to reply. Can you remind me on Saturday?