Norway's Sad Tragedy

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I think that you are right on the entire issue. He need to be executed for his crimes, no matter what reason.
 
Norway hasn't got the death penalty.

But...I don't know.

I just don't know.

I don't know if my conception of Norway really is accurate, but I'll give you the picture I have.

Norway is a beautiful country, an incredible country. They have a land, a history, a language and a tradition that is not like any other country in the world. It is entirely unique in the whole world. The few Norwegian people I know love their country like they love their own mother.

All through history, Norway has been a safe haven for all peoples. A neutral zone in time of war. A refuge. A place where children and old people are valued and protected, where the safety and security and lack of crime in the country is a very proud thing that the people have won through hard work.

The most unthinkable thing in the world to them, would be someone who kills in the name of 'cultural purity' - even if because of someone's twisted brain.

Sure you can lock him up.

What if he gets out?

People escape from jails. He will kill again. This man, I don't think any medication will help him. I doubt he'd ever willingly take any, and I'm sure that the moment he was out of the range of supervision, he'd stop it.

If my guess is right and he's gradually been getting sick for years, those delusions have had so much time to exist in his brain. They've had years. A medication might stop new delusions from forming, but the old ones, I'm not sure they'd ever fade. Or be less compelling to him. When people are sick for a long time, without treatment, they might - yes - might - I wouldn't assume so, but it's possible any recovery (and I don't mean cure, but more agreeing to take medication and becoming calmer and less driven by the delusions) would be very limited.

I also have this memory of talking to a guy who had very severe paranoia and delusions. I remember I knew him for YEARS and he always seemed to be very cooperative.

But he got worse - he was TAKING his medication, guys, and he just worsened again.

What happens is they simply, spontaneously GET WORSE. It's MORE likely if they had a long time off medication, or if they abused alcohol or drugs.

Then, they stop taking their medication, the medication that they're taking stops working as well (because the disease has worsened). If they are in a prison, they just 'cheek' their meds or vomit them up later. They stop cooperating, but secretly, then they look for a way to escape.

One day, this guy called me up and he told me he was carving several knives out of metal skillets, and packing up all his gear to go live in the woods, and if a policeman stopped him to question him - well he made it clear what the knives were for.

It really is rather rare, both that a person gets sicker while taking medication, AND that a doctor wouldn't catch it. In the case I mentioned, it was ME who called the doc and said he was making terroristic threats. And he never spoke to me again, but I feel confident that that doctor did whatever she could do, to change his medications, get him hospitalized, whatever she needed to have happen.

But the point was this. This guy had mapped out both the hospital and the jail. He was confident that he had figured out how to escape from either one. I don't know if it was as easy as he described, but he was confident.

SO, say you put this shooter in prison. He gets worse in prison, he escapes, he's going to do it again.

I don't know. Perhaps they will make a special ruling in his case or hold a national referendum.
 
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I have been virtually glued to my laptop since this started. I have read all the accounts, looked at all available photo and video material and I have read articles, previous discussions where ABB participated and read theories around who, what, why this happened. I will not go into detail about it all, but here are some tidbits for better understanding the situation.
He is not mentally ill it would seem, but he IS a very cold person who thinks he is fighting a war on multiculturalism. Unfortunately, Norway has very lenient laws on incarceration and he will most likely be let loose some day, unless he is submitted to Hague for trial.


Anders Behring Breivik grew up on the west (wealthy) side of Oslo. He had a relatively safe upbringing with some minor clashes with immigrant gangs. He was never seriously hurt physically or mentally. To all his friends and aquaintances, mostly from the west side as well, have not seen anything abnormal in his behaviour at all. He has expressed his views as moderate right-wing. He has told no-one about his plans, which he has been working on for years. The events that occured on July 22nd have been in the making for several years and practical preparations began in May 2009 with the registering of Breivik Geofarm as a credible cover for living on a smallholding and purchasing fertilizer. Since then he has worked systematically with aquiring information on how to best produce the bomb and tactial approach to the attack, he has purchased and modified armor, guns, ammunition and chemicals.
In May 2011 he moved into the rented smallholding on Åsta Øst in Rena, set up his lab and started working. A detailed diary of the events is included in his manifesto.

Upon arrival at Utvika (the place where boats travel across to Utøya) he told the present persons that he was sent for a routine security check at Utøya due to the events in Oslo. He was dressed in police uniform and had an ID badge from the police with his own name on it. The people on the island were alerted and a boat was sent to fetch him. Meanwhile the people on the island were attending an information meeting regarding the event that just took place in Oslo.
On the boat across he was carried a machine gun, a hand gun and a heavy case that was to be brought up to the main hall. Outside the main hall there was a police officer in civilian clothing as he was hired for private security on the island. An employee went to meet with Breivik and asked him questions regarding his business there, which may have prompted him to make her and the officer the first targets when the woman made her way up to speak to the civilian officer. They were shot and killed while the captain of the boat (the womans live-in boyfriend) and the others on board watched.

As everyone dispersed in a panic, he calmly made his way around the island, killing anyone who came into his sight. He called youth over by reassuring them that they were now safe and that the gunman had been apprehended, only to execute them when they came close enough. He supposedly spoke to many of the kids, saying things like "good night" and "your turn is up".
Here are some exerpts from witness accounts that I have translated for you, apologies for any spelling errors or poor language:

Herman Holmoy Heggertveit (18) spoke to the man and realised something was wrong.
After running in a panic from the sound of gunshots and helping a boy who had been shot in both legs, Herman and a group of others from AUF tried to hide in a beach on the north side of the island. When a police officer came towards them, Herman thought they were finally in safe hands. "He walked calmy towards us, and when he was 4-5 meters away, he asked if we were doing okay and if we knew where the killer was." His first reaction was to point in the direction he fled from. "I said we hadn't seen him but the last shots we heard came from that direction. When I saw his lack of interest, I realized something wasn't right. He seemed distant and uninterested in what I was saying. His focus was elsewhere. It was on us. He seemed quite calm and really quite pleased to have found us. The next momemt, he raised his weapon and aimed it at some of the girls in the group. The last thing I saw before throwing myself in the water, was shots being fired."
When he came far out, he dared turn around and see what was happening. "At shore I saw many lying on the ground. The officer was standing among them. He looked around and must have seen signs of life because he suddely raised his gun and shot at the ones lying there. A young boy was standing right in front of him. It seemed like he was talking to the killer." Herman turned and swam away from the island. "Then I heard one shot. After that, I never turned to look back".



-He came up the hill and was only 20 meters away from me. I looked him right in the eye, he loaded his weapon, pointed it at me and some others and then he fired. I don't know if anyone around me were hit, Magnus Stenseth says.
Magnus says that he ad the other youths ran into a building while the killer fired several shots. When they tried to make their way out through another door, they were met by the man dressed as a police officer. Magnus says panic erupted. -Things were broken to pieces and people climbed over one another to get away, he says.
He made eye contact with the killer. -It looked like he was there having fun. That makes the situation even worse, that he was enjoying himself with what he was doing. He walked around the island like he had all power, and he did because we had no means of defending ourselves.



Adrian Pracon survived being shot:
He walked towards me and the bodies lying there. I heard his shoes stop right beside my face. I could hear his breathing clearly. He was calm and collected and was in no rush to pull the trigger. If people ran he knew he would catch up. He would find them, it wasn't a problem.
"An eleven year old boy came and told me his father was dead. Then he walked on. It was horrible to hear. The situation was so chaotic, the boy just kept walking" Pracon says. He then sees the gunman walk towards the boy. The boy stops. Pracon can hear what they are talking about. Pracon lays completely still and pretends to be dead. "I hear the boy say "Don't shoot me, you have shot enough now. You have killed my daddy. I'm too young to die. Leave us be.". The gunman then turns away. Maybe he had a glimmer of sympathy. The boy saved himself, Pracon says.



Emma Martinovic swam to safety:
I hear people screaming that they were panicking, I scream "keep your head above water, swim out! Breathe!" and then I lay over on my back, look back at the island, there I see the jerk. He is standing in a police uniform, he has light hair, white skin, I can see his police cap, I can see the gun. Then it seemed like he looked out at us, and then he aimed. Poof, someone in front of me was shot, I saw blood pouring out, I swam faster.
[..] Behind me I could still hear the shots, I hear the screams, I hear the jerk laughing while he shot, I heard him screaming after us "you can't get away!", I heard everything.
[..] A boy came swimming beside me, I look at him and say "you're so small, you're so good at swimming", he looks at me and says "daddy is dead", I replied "don't look behind you, swim for daddy, you are very good", then he replies "I thought the police were nice".
 
(shudder reading those narration from the survivors) Thanks for sharing, Tuppenor. It just chilled me to the bone.......some weird thinking going on and the words from the boy telling him that he killed his father and let him survive. Whew!
 
That was very shocking of how he had acted on the island, that was pure evil of that man, although I am glad that he did let the boy go. Thanks for sharing too, Tuppenor.
 
It is surreal reading these accounts where people beg for their lives - and some are spared while others are gunned down.
There is a set of two photos taken from a news helicopter video. They didn't realize what they were filming until afterwards.

I warn everyone that these pictures, although grainy and unclear, are extremely unpleasant to look at!
1: The gunman is standing amidst several lifeless bodies, a boy in the water seems to begging for his life.
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc489/hiluxmk5/shooter.jpg

2: The gunman is walking away, the boy is not seen
http://static.theurbn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Utoya-camp-shooter.jpeg
 
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It depends on when and how it was taken.....seems like pic number two didn't have that many bodies, either people are still in the wooded area, running for their lives going to the sea and then he shot them down afterwards, in pic 1.

Such a tragedy! I am sure the boy was not in the pic #2 because it was cut off on the left hand side (if he was the one in red shirt with arm upstretched).
 
Execute him. Preferably by hanging. Even that's going too easy on him, but anything worse would probably be torture.

Oh, wait, Norway doesn't do the death penalty. I guess they'll "rehabilitate" him, then let him go to kill more people.
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I may be wrong, but I've been under the impression that Norway doesn't even sentence people to life in prison.
 
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I dunno, I feel like we've had more than our fair share of domestic terrorists, especially those on the far Right Wing.

Funny how only right-wingers get all the attention. Sure, they do more dramatic stuff, but I'm fairly sure that far-Left communist and radical environmentalist organizations have killed more people and destroyed more property, especially during the Cold War era.
 

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